House to Vote on Abortion Anesthesia Bill

[Frodo]

House to Vote on Abortion Anesthesia Bill;
Conservatives Vow More Tests for Democrats on Social Issues When Congress Returns

By Jonathan Weisman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, December 5, 2006; Page A05

In a parting gesture by social conservatives before Republicans relinquish control, House leaders plan to bring up a bill tomorrow that would declare that fetuses feel pain and require abortion providers to offer pregnant patients anesthesia for their unborn child.

The scheduled vote may be the last on abortion-related legislation for years. That's because Democratic leaders hope to avoid confrontations over hot-button social issues that divide their caucus, and focus instead on military and pocketbook issues.
   
But Republicans and anti-abortion activists signaled yesterday that they intend to press hard on social issues, even those that failed to gain traction during Republican control, to separate moderate-to-conservative Democrats from their more liberal leaders.

"The Democrats are facing an interesting situation because they ran to the right in this election," said Wendy Wright, president of the conservative group Concerned Women for America. "They promised one thing to America with their campaigning. The question is, will they live up to that image? Running and hiding is not a solution."

Democrats are shying from the fight. House Democratic leaders have declared tomorrow's decision "a vote of conscience" and will not try to sway the outcome. House Speaker-elect Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) does not plan to speak on the bill, a rarity for her.

The fetal pain bill is coming up nearly as an afterthought, in the final week of a lame-duck session of Congress. House Republican leaders are using expedited procedures to bring it to a vote, meaning it will take a two-thirds vote of the House to pass. Its supporters are setting expectations low.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

January can't come soon enough. The real issues don't work for the Republicans, so they have to resort to complete and utter garbage like this.

[Nym90]

In theory this is ok, but it's an utter waste of time and in reality does nothing.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

January can't come soon enough. The real issues don't work for the Republicans, so they have to resort to complete and utter garbage like this.

In theory this is ok, but it's an utter waste of time and in reality does nothing.

[Gabu]

House leaders plan to bring up a bill tomorrow that would declare that fetuses feel pain

Fortunately for the universe, facts cannot be overridden by a government declaration.

[Ebowed]

This is quite a good issue for the GOP, because it allows them to equate in the public's mind a first trimester abortion with a second or third trimester abortion where it is believed the fetus can feel pain depending on the exact stage of development.  Of course, in reality it does nothing to address abortion, but not enough conservatives seem to be catching on to the fact that the GOP relies on keeping abortion legal so it can keep bringing up jokes like this as a way of appeasing the fundamentalists.

I'd vote against the legislation, because it puts a contradiction into the law, similar to the "Unborn Victims of Violence" legislation: it's legal to kill a fetus, but illegal to hurt it while doing so.  What sense does this make, if the fetus has no rights to begin with?

[John Dibble]

House leaders plan to bring up a bill tomorrow that would declare that fetuses feel pain

Fortunately for the universe, facts cannot be overridden by a government declaration.

Unfortunately for the people inhabiting the universe, government still tries.

[TeePee4Prez]

Red herring- Abosultely not.

[WMS]

House leaders plan to bring up a bill tomorrow that would declare that fetuses feel pain

Fortunately for the universe, facts cannot be overridden by a government declaration.

Out of curiosity, are you saying fetuses never feel pain?

[Gabu]

House leaders plan to bring up a bill tomorrow that would declare that fetuses feel pain

Fortunately for the universe, facts cannot be overridden by a government declaration.

Out of curiosity, are you saying fetuses never feel pain?

No.  Obviously when the fetus is very developed, it can.  However, as far as I can tell, this bill declares that fetuses can feel pain at all times, which is plainly silly, since a fetus' brain does not begin functioning until fairly late in the pregnancy, and you can't very well perceive pain without a brain with which to perceive it.

[WMS]

House leaders plan to bring up a bill tomorrow that would declare that fetuses feel pain

Fortunately for the universe, facts cannot be overridden by a government declaration.

Out of curiosity, are you saying fetuses never feel pain?

No.  Obviously when the fetus is very developed, it can.  However, as far as I can tell, this bill declares that fetuses can feel pain at all times, which is plainly silly, since a fetus' brain does not begin functioning until fairly late in the pregnancy, and you can't very well perceive pain without a brain with which to perceive it.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I suspect the answer to the question of when a fetus does feel pain would be interesting in light of all the various laws on this subject...

[John Dibble]

House leaders plan to bring up a bill tomorrow that would declare that fetuses feel pain

Fortunately for the universe, facts cannot be overridden by a government declaration.

Out of curiosity, are you saying fetuses never feel pain?

No.  Obviously when the fetus is very developed, it can.  However, as far as I can tell, this bill declares that fetuses can feel pain at all times, which is plainly silly, since a fetus' brain does not begin functioning until fairly late in the pregnancy, and you can't very well perceive pain without a brain with which to perceive it.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I suspect the answer to the question of when a fetus does feel pain would be interesting in light of all the various laws on this subject...

I agree with Gabu on this. FYI, having looked it up at an earlier point in time, IIRC it was stated that the synapses/nerves develop to the point where pain can be felt at around the third trimester. Again IIRC this is also about the time significant brain waves start being detectable.

[Brandon H]

While I believe abortion is wrong and have mixed feelings on the death penalty, at the least unborn children deserve at least as much compassion as criminals being executed. Still, this comes off more as Republicans giving lip service to Pro-Lifers. Had Republicans maintained a majority in both Houses and maybe even if only one, I doubt they would have brought this bill up. They are just trying to tell voters they are still pro-life and that they need to vote Republican in 2008.

Actually, given this bill does NOTHING to make abortions harder to obtain, and only requires woman have more information about abortion and related options (not to mention the minimal opposition by the Democrats as well as NARAL), this bill is actually pro-choice (neither pro- nor anti-abortion).

If the Republicans were serious about being pro-life, they would have tried this bill before the election or would have tried passing the Sancity of Life Act or the Right to Life Act (HR 552 & 776, though I may have them reversed).

[7,052,770]

Wow, this is really retarded....not QUITE as retarded as being mad that a Muslim won't swear in on the Bible, but almost...

[nclib]

Definitely opposed.

Luckily, it failed.

http://clerk.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.asp?year=2006&rollnumber=526

Only disappointment is that of the nine Republicans voting against it, five of them won't be in Congress nest month.

[muon2]

House leaders plan to bring up a bill tomorrow that would declare that fetuses feel pain

Fortunately for the universe, facts cannot be overridden by a government declaration.

Out of curiosity, are you saying fetuses never feel pain?

No.  Obviously when the fetus is very developed, it can.  However, as far as I can tell, this bill declares that fetuses can feel pain at all times, which is plainly silly, since a fetus' brain does not begin functioning until fairly late in the pregnancy, and you can't very well perceive pain without a brain with which to perceive it.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I suspect the answer to the question of when a fetus does feel pain would be interesting in light of all the various laws on this subject...

It's very hard to define "feeling pain" for entities that cannot communicate those sensations. What we do know about human brain development is that the brainstem is formed by the 7th week. This would be the earliest activity in a sense that for some simple nonhuman organisms it is sufficient to react to external stimuli.

The human fetus make spontaneous, typically reflexive movements by the 9th week, but technology cannot yet tell us if any of those reflexes are pain-related. Certainly some reflexes in orgaisms are a reaction to pain stimuli.

Research is developing tools to test fetal response to controlled external stimuli. Currently best technology can measure activity to defined stimuli at 25 weeks. That is not a statement about the onset of pain sensation, only on the current state of technology. With the current technology one can only draw inferences about pain sensing prior to that stage of development.

[WMS]

House leaders plan to bring up a bill tomorrow that would declare that fetuses feel pain

Fortunately for the universe, facts cannot be overridden by a government declaration.

Out of curiosity, are you saying fetuses never feel pain?

No.  Obviously when the fetus is very developed, it can.  However, as far as I can tell, this bill declares that fetuses can feel pain at all times, which is plainly silly, since a fetus' brain does not begin functioning until fairly late in the pregnancy, and you can't very well perceive pain without a brain with which to perceive it.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I suspect the answer to the question of when a fetus does feel pain would be interesting in light of all the various laws on this subject...

It's very hard to define "feeling pain" for entities that cannot communicate those sensations. What we do know about human brain development is that the brainstem is formed by the 7th week. This would be the earliest activity in a sense that for some simple nonhuman organisms it is sufficient to react to external stimuli.

The human fetus make spontaneous, typically reflexive movements by the 9th week, but technology cannot yet tell us if any of those reflexes are pain-related. Certainly some reflexes in orgaisms are a reaction to pain stimuli.

Research is developing tools to test fetal response to controlled external stimuli. Currently best technology can measure activity to defined stimuli at 25 weeks. That is not a statement about the onset of pain sensation, only on the current state of technology. With the current technology one can only draw inferences about pain sensing prior to that stage of development.

See, now this is the type of reply that illuminates. Good to see I can count on muon2 for the science stuff.