what is the libertarian health care plan?

[Bono]

Simple:

1. don't get sick.

2. If you do get sick, rely on charity or die quietly.

True Story.

Indeed.

And another thing in the health insurance debate that is often overlooked is the businesses moving to Canada because they could not handle the immense (and ever-increasing) cost of health care in this country. They far prefer Canada's higher taxes but universal health care to the immense costs of health care here.

That is becuase health insurance has become attached to employment status. That is one of the great problems with the current system, one that would be elliminated if the distortions that incentive this are elliminated.

[WalterMitty]

And speaking of that, if the health of the poor is such a concern of yours, what exactly have you been doing as of late to alleviate it?

john dibble i dont have access to health care.  i am part of the poor.

but, hey, survival of the fittest, right?  im the weakest link i guess.

and yes i do believe health care is a human right, even for poor white trash like me who have made of mess out of things.

[MaC]

And speaking of that, if the health of the poor is such a concern of yours, what exactly have you been doing as of late to alleviate it?

john dibble i dont have access to health care.  i am part of the poor.

but, hey, survival of the fittest, right?  im the weakest link i guess.

and yes i do believe health care is a human right, even for poor white trash like me who have made of mess out of things.

Health care wouldn't be 'free', but you'd be able to afford it much easier if what I proposed was enacted.  I mean, Walter should health care be absolutely free or just affordable?  If your talking about the former, as in health care being a positive right-you can apply that to food and clothing-that the government should supply those to everyone also.

[WalterMitty]

And speaking of that, if the health of the poor is such a concern of yours, what exactly have you been doing as of late to alleviate it?

john dibble i dont have access to health care.  i am part of the poor.

but, hey, survival of the fittest, right?  im the weakest link i guess.

and yes i do believe health care is a human right, even for poor white trash like me who have made of mess out of things.

Health care wouldn't be 'free', but you'd be able to afford it much easier if what I proposed was enacted.  I mean, Walter should health care be absolutely free or just affordable?  If your talking about the former, as in health care being a positive right-you can apply that to food and clothing-that the government should supply those to everyone also.

simply speaking, everyone should pay according to their ability.

take it from me, it is no fun being sick and having very little access to health care. 

and yeah, there is a lot people can say about me.  maybe im crazy.  maybe i squandered a lot of education and talent.  maybe ive made poor choices

but i can assure you that whatever mistakes ive made, ive fully suffered the consequences

sorry to rant.  but all of this survival of the fittest nonsense makes me angry.  hell i probably would have spewed that nonsense in my early 20s when i was healthy, in college (with my parents picking up the tab)

and i also fully realize that many of those 40 million plus without insurance are even sicker and poorer than me.  so i dont mean to cry a river.

[David S]

And speaking of that, if the health of the poor is such a concern of yours, what exactly have you been doing as of late to alleviate it?

john dibble i dont have access to health care.  i am part of the poor.

but, hey, survival of the fittest, right?  im the weakest link i guess.

and yes i do believe health care is a human right, even for poor white trash like me who have made of mess out of things.

Health care wouldn't be 'free', but you'd be able to afford it much easier if what I proposed was enacted.  I mean, Walter should health care be absolutely free or just affordable?  If your talking about the former, as in health care being a positive right-you can apply that to food and clothing-that the government should supply those to everyone also.

simply speaking, everyone should pay according to their ability.

take it from me, it is no fun being sick and having very little access to health care. 

and yeah, there is a lot people can say about me.  maybe im crazy.  maybe i squandered a lot of education and talent.  maybe ive made poor choices

but i can assure you that whatever mistakes ive made, ive fully suffered the consequences

sorry to rant.  but all of this survival of the fittest nonsense makes me angry.  hell i probably would have spewed that nonsense in my early 20s when i was healthy, in college (with my parents picking up the tab)

and i also fully realize that many of those 40 million plus without insurance are even sicker and poorer than me.  so i dont mean to cry a river.

Who provides your food clothing and shelter? Does government give that to you or do you pay for it yourself?  If you are really as poor as you say you might qualify for medicaid and if you go to an emergency room you cannot be turned away because you're poor. They have to treat you.

Also if you are that poor how do you afford your PC and internet access?

[John Dibble]

take it from me, it is no fun being sick and having very little access to health care.

Nobody said it was. I'd think that much would be obvious anyways.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You might do well to stop calling it 'survival of the fittest' - Libertarians do advocate and often participate in private charity. Charity seems to go against the principle of survival of the fittest, does it not?

Now while it may piss you off that we don't believe that healthcare is a right, that's just the way it is. We don't think we have the right to take what belongs to others, even if it is for a good cause, which is exactly why we advocate charity - we're not heartless monsters, we do want to help our fellow human beings, we just don't want to do something we see as wrong to do it. We do not see the ends justifying the means. If you disagree with it, fine, but I would ask you to stop acting like we don't give a damn.

[John Dibble]

Also if you are that poor how do you afford your PC and internet access?

Capitalism, duh.

"The capitalist engine is first and last an engine of mass production which unavoidably also means production for the masses. . . . It is the cheap cloth, the cheap cotton and rayon fabric, boots, motorcars and so on that are the typical achievements of capitalist production, and not as a rule improvements that would mean much to the rich man. Queen Elizabeth owned silk stockings. The capitalist achievement does not typically consist in providing more silk stockings for queens but in bringing them within reach of factory girls." - Joseph Schumpeter

Low end computers are cheap, and internet connection prices are lower than they used to be. Cheap enough that even many people who are considered poor would be able to afford it. Same reason most poor people today own televisions.

But since health care is expensive, largely in thanks to the reasons pointed out earlier in this thread, he can't afford that.

[WalterMitty]

And speaking of that, if the health of the poor is such a concern of yours, what exactly have you been doing as of late to alleviate it?

john dibble i dont have access to health care.  i am part of the poor.

but, hey, survival of the fittest, right?  im the weakest link i guess.

and yes i do believe health care is a human right, even for poor white trash like me who have made of mess out of things.

Health care wouldn't be 'free', but you'd be able to afford it much easier if what I proposed was enacted.  I mean, Walter should health care be absolutely free or just affordable?  If your talking about the former, as in health care being a positive right-you can apply that to food and clothing-that the government should supply those to everyone also.

simply speaking, everyone should pay according to their ability.

take it from me, it is no fun being sick and having very little access to health care. 

and yeah, there is a lot people can say about me.  maybe im crazy.  maybe i squandered a lot of education and talent.  maybe ive made poor choices

but i can assure you that whatever mistakes ive made, ive fully suffered the consequences

sorry to rant.  but all of this survival of the fittest nonsense makes me angry.  hell i probably would have spewed that nonsense in my early 20s when i was healthy, in college (with my parents picking up the tab)

and i also fully realize that many of those 40 million plus without insurance are even sicker and poorer than me.  so i dont mean to cry a river.

Who provides your food clothing and shelter? Does government give that to you or do you pay for it yourself?  If you are really as poor as you say you might qualify for medicaid and if you go to an emergency room you cannot be turned away because you're poor. They have to treat you.

Also if you are that poor how do you afford your PC and internet access?

im in the process of getting masshealth.  theyve already sent me the card.  but i have to send them a copy of my birth certificate and 'proof of identity".  so, hopefully after the first of the year, i may actually get to see a doctor.

i have a somewhat serious eye condition that requires a lot of treatment (inluding two medications per day).  i have been able to somewhat keep up to date with that (though i havent gone to the specialist as often as i needed).  i paid with credit cards and some help from my parents.

when times were better for me, i paid every penny out of pocket.  a conservative estimate would be about $2,000 between 2003-05


i pay for internet with a credit card, if you really must know.

[David S]

And speaking of that, if the health of the poor is such a concern of yours, what exactly have you been doing as of late to alleviate it?

john dibble i dont have access to health care.  i am part of the poor.

but, hey, survival of the fittest, right?  im the weakest link i guess.

and yes i do believe health care is a human right, even for poor white trash like me who have made of mess out of things.

Health care wouldn't be 'free', but you'd be able to afford it much easier if what I proposed was enacted.  I mean, Walter should health care be absolutely free or just affordable?  If your talking about the former, as in health care being a positive right-you can apply that to food and clothing-that the government should supply those to everyone also.

simply speaking, everyone should pay according to their ability.

take it from me, it is no fun being sick and having very little access to health care. 

and yeah, there is a lot people can say about me.  maybe im crazy.  maybe i squandered a lot of education and talent.  maybe ive made poor choices

but i can assure you that whatever mistakes ive made, ive fully suffered the consequences

sorry to rant.  but all of this survival of the fittest nonsense makes me angry.  hell i probably would have spewed that nonsense in my early 20s when i was healthy, in college (with my parents picking up the tab)

and i also fully realize that many of those 40 million plus without insurance are even sicker and poorer than me.  so i dont mean to cry a river.

Who provides your food clothing and shelter? Does government give that to you or do you pay for it yourself?  If you are really as poor as you say you might qualify for medicaid and if you go to an emergency room you cannot be turned away because you're poor. They have to treat you.

Also if you are that poor how do you afford your PC and internet access?

im in the process of getting masshealth.  theyve already sent me the card.  but i have to send them a copy of my birth certificate and 'proof of identity".  so, hopefully after the first of the year, i may actually get to see a doctor.

i have a somewhat serious eye condition that requires a lot of treatment (inluding two medications per day).  i have been able to somewhat keep up to date with that (though i havent gone to the specialist as often as i needed).  i paid with credit cards and some help from my parents.

when times were better for me, i paid every penny out of pocket.  a conservative estimate would be about $2,000 between 2003-05


i pay for internet with a credit card, if you really must know.

If your healthcare costs were $2000 over the course of 2 or 3 years you're getting a decent deal. The healthcare plan my wife and I get with my retirement costs about $12000 a year of which I pay about $5000 and my employer pays the rest. That has a $500 deductable too and a 20% copay so I can still have to pay alot before the ins even kicks in.

[MaC]

And speaking of that, if the health of the poor is such a concern of yours, what exactly have you been doing as of late to alleviate it?

john dibble i dont have access to health care.  i am part of the poor.

but, hey, survival of the fittest, right?  im the weakest link i guess.

and yes i do believe health care is a human right, even for poor white trash like me who have made of mess out of things.

Health care wouldn't be 'free', but you'd be able to afford it much easier if what I proposed was enacted.  I mean, Walter should health care be absolutely free or just affordable?  If your talking about the former, as in health care being a positive right-you can apply that to food and clothing-that the government should supply those to everyone also.

sorry to rant.  but all of this survival of the fittest nonsense makes me angry.  hell i probably would have spewed that nonsense in my early 20s when i was healthy, in college (with my parents picking up the tab)

and i also fully realize that many of those 40 million plus without insurance are even sicker and poorer than me.  so i dont mean to cry a river.

I'm not advocating a 'survival of the fittest' attitude.  I want you to have better access to health care at a more affordable rate.  (fortuately you don't claim that it's a 'right' as many do)  You did ask what the libertarian health care plan is-and I'm telling you to the best of my ability.  The lp.org platform isn't a solidly followed manifesto of beliefs as you can see anyone from myself to John Dibble can agree enough with the party to be members of it.

All I'm saying is that government has helped make the health care industry so horrible in the first place.

Would you be complaining about being one of the 47million w/o insurance if you had Medicaid?  Chances are if you do qualify for this program, the fact that you are part of the 47 million is irrelevant because you're already recieving coverage.

Do you think that the FDA should be insulated from non-governmental influences?  Even if my Ivory Tower ideals of abolishing the institution cannot be achieved, I would hope that you would at least agree that the funding from perscription pharmeceutical companies plays a role in deciding whether or not bad medicine gets passed or not.

Do you think that a single option by your employer that's mandated by them to provide you care is necessarily the best option?  Or would you rather have tax-deductible medical expenses which you can then decide which coverage is best for you?

Would you agree that 'basics' such as emergency care should be an option when considering insurance-or would you rather an all-inclusive insurance that covers contact lenses and dental hygyne and thus skyrockets the cost of medical insurance?

All these seem like palatable options to me in solving the health care crisis-and would positively affect you and your family.

If this is still bothering you, contact me in four years.  By then I'll already have my own place, living on my own, making my own money and decisions-and I'll at least 'know' the real world by then.

[WalterMitty]

And speaking of that, if the health of the poor is such a concern of yours, what exactly have you been doing as of late to alleviate it?

john dibble i dont have access to health care.  i am part of the poor.

but, hey, survival of the fittest, right?  im the weakest link i guess.

and yes i do believe health care is a human right, even for poor white trash like me who have made of mess out of things.

Health care wouldn't be 'free', but you'd be able to afford it much easier if what I proposed was enacted.  I mean, Walter should health care be absolutely free or just affordable?  If your talking about the former, as in health care being a positive right-you can apply that to food and clothing-that the government should supply those to everyone also.

simply speaking, everyone should pay according to their ability.

take it from me, it is no fun being sick and having very little access to health care. 

and yeah, there is a lot people can say about me.  maybe im crazy.  maybe i squandered a lot of education and talent.  maybe ive made poor choices

but i can assure you that whatever mistakes ive made, ive fully suffered the consequences

sorry to rant.  but all of this survival of the fittest nonsense makes me angry.  hell i probably would have spewed that nonsense in my early 20s when i was healthy, in college (with my parents picking up the tab)

and i also fully realize that many of those 40 million plus without insurance are even sicker and poorer than me.  so i dont mean to cry a river.

Who provides your food clothing and shelter? Does government give that to you or do you pay for it yourself?  If you are really as poor as you say you might qualify for medicaid and if you go to an emergency room you cannot be turned away because you're poor. They have to treat you.

Also if you are that poor how do you afford your PC and internet access?

im in the process of getting masshealth.  theyve already sent me the card.  but i have to send them a copy of my birth certificate and 'proof of identity".  so, hopefully after the first of the year, i may actually get to see a doctor.

i have a somewhat serious eye condition that requires a lot of treatment (inluding two medications per day).  i have been able to somewhat keep up to date with that (though i havent gone to the specialist as often as i needed).  i paid with credit cards and some help from my parents.

when times were better for me, i paid every penny out of pocket.  a conservative estimate would be about $2,000 between 2003-05


i pay for internet with a credit card, if you really must know.

If your healthcare costs were $2000 over the course of 2 or 3 years you're getting a decent deal. The healthcare plan my wife and I get with my retirement costs about $12000 a year of which I pay about $5000 and my employer pays the rest. That has a $500 deductable too and a 20% copay so I can still have to pay alot before the ins even kicks in.

$2,000 is a conservative estimate.  i spent a ton of money on medication alone.

let's just say that $2,000 was a pretty large percentage of my take-home pay during those two years

[Inverted Things]

Walter, I've been where you're at: poor and in need of medical attention. In fact, I still haven't had a surgery that I've been needing for a while, even though I'm not really poor anymore.

Nonetheless, I've been slanting more and more libertarian over the last few months, so I'll chime in with my views.

Firstly, you have the right to healthcare; there is nothing stopping you from taking good care of yourself. My stance on this is similar to education; you have a right to education in the sense that you are allowed to learn whatever you want. You do not necessarily have the right to teachers or doctors, however.

When it comes to capitalism, prices are supposed to get lower as technology advances. We see this in computers, electricity, telephones, automobiles, and so on. Why is this not so with healthcare? There are several reasons.

When it comes to prescription drugs, the people of this country get screwed over by government threefold. First, other countries have made deals with the manufacturers of these drugs, forcing them to raise prices in this country to recoup development costs and make a profit. Second, our patent system grants monopolies to these manufacturers on their drugs. Third, our own government makes deals with these companies, but only for specific voting segments of the population (i.e. senior citizens).

The issue of general healthcare has been beaten to death by the true libertarians here. One more thing that needs to be said is that it's the insurance companies who drive up costs by making deals with specific hospitals, clinics, and doctors. Again, this means higher costs for everyone else.

One final note: "survival of the fittest" is a tautology. Doesn't really mean anything.

[Bono]

Add to the list of problems the fear of malpractice lawsuits, which would be solved with a tort reform that liberals are afraid of doing.

[SPC]

1. Seperate science and state: Get rid of the HMO. make drug companies have to do the research that they patent.
2. Make insurance for catastrophic events only: right now, people can get plastic surgery and have insurance pay for it. This will obviously jakk up helthcare prices. Make health insurance be for only emergency procedures.
3. Get rid of government regulations: Get rid of the FDA. First of all, people have a right to take dangerous medications so long as they are aware of it. Second, it makes it so people who seriously need the medication have to wait longer to get it. Third, it allows over-the-counter deals to be made (i.e. Vioxx)
4. Let the free market take care of the rest. otherwise, the prescription drug inustry is prone to shortages and patients will get lower quality service.
 

[David S]

And speaking of that, if the health of the poor is such a concern of yours, what exactly have you been doing as of late to alleviate it?

john dibble i dont have access to health care.  i am part of the poor.

but, hey, survival of the fittest, right?  im the weakest link i guess.

and yes i do believe health care is a human right, even for poor white trash like me who have made of mess out of things.

Health care wouldn't be 'free', but you'd be able to afford it much easier if what I proposed was enacted.  I mean, Walter should health care be absolutely free or just affordable?  If your talking about the former, as in health care being a positive right-you can apply that to food and clothing-that the government should supply those to everyone also.

simply speaking, everyone should pay according to their ability.

take it from me, it is no fun being sick and having very little access to health care. 

and yeah, there is a lot people can say about me.  maybe im crazy.  maybe i squandered a lot of education and talent.  maybe ive made poor choices

but i can assure you that whatever mistakes ive made, ive fully suffered the consequences

sorry to rant.  but all of this survival of the fittest nonsense makes me angry.  hell i probably would have spewed that nonsense in my early 20s when i was healthy, in college (with my parents picking up the tab)

and i also fully realize that many of those 40 million plus without insurance are even sicker and poorer than me.  so i dont mean to cry a river.

Who provides your food clothing and shelter? Does government give that to you or do you pay for it yourself?  If you are really as poor as you say you might qualify for medicaid and if you go to an emergency room you cannot be turned away because you're poor. They have to treat you.

Also if you are that poor how do you afford your PC and internet access?

im in the process of getting masshealth.  theyve already sent me the card.  but i have to send them a copy of my birth certificate and 'proof of identity".  so, hopefully after the first of the year, i may actually get to see a doctor.

i have a somewhat serious eye condition that requires a lot of treatment (inluding two medications per day).  i have been able to somewhat keep up to date with that (though i havent gone to the specialist as often as i needed).  i paid with credit cards and some help from my parents.

when times were better for me, i paid every penny out of pocket.  a conservative estimate would be about $2,000 between 2003-05


i pay for internet with a credit card, if you really must know.

Walter I don't mean to be insensitive to your problems and I don't mean to meddle in your affairs. As I understand it you've been to college, you have a job and therefore an income. The numbers you mentioned for health expenditures don't seem so extreme as to put you in debt. But something else you said leads me to believe that perhaps the root cause of your problems is that little plastic credit card. If you're running a balance on your card and paying typical credit card interest rates you may be digging yourself into a very deep hole. If that's the case then my neighborly advice would be to destroy the cards and work out a plan to pay off the balance as fast as possible.

[SPC]

1. Seperate science and state: Get rid of the HMO. make drug companies have to do the research that they patent.
2. Make insurance for catastrophic events only: right now, people can get plastic surgery and have insurance pay for it. This will obviously jakk up helthcare prices. Make health insurance be for only emergency procedures.
3. Get rid of government regulations: Get rid of the FDA. First of all, people have a right to take dangerous medications so long as they are aware of it. Second, it makes it so people who seriously need the medication have to wait longer to get it. Third, it allows over-the-counter deals to be made (i.e. Vioxx)
4. Let the free market take care of the rest. otherwise, the prescription drug inustry is prone to shortages and patients will get lower quality service.
 

Oops, i forgot tort reform: Make it so patients must cite negligence if they are going to sue. This makes it so doctors don't have to do every single unnecesary inspection just for a minor injury.