Panel Proposes Major Changes to American Education System

[Frodo]

Thoughts?
--------------------

Expert Panel Proposes Far-Reaching Redesign of the American Education System

By DAVID M. HERSZENHORN
Published: December 15, 2006

Warning that Americans face a grave risk of losing their prosperity and high quality of life to better educated workers overseas, a panel of education, labor and other public policy experts yesterday proposed a far-reaching redesign of the United States education system that would include having schools operated by independent contractors and giving states, rather than local districts, control over school financing.

The panel, the New Commission on the Skills of the American Workforce, included two former federal education secretaries, Rod Paige, a Republican, and Richard W. Riley, a Democrat; two former labor secretaries, William E. Brock, a Republican, and Ray Marshall, a Democrat; and an array of other luminaries, including former Gov. John Engler of Michigan, and the New York City schools chancellor, Joel I. Klein.

The commission’s report, released at a news conference in Washington, rethinks American schooling from top to bottom, going beyond the achievement goals of the federal education law known as No Child Left Behind, and farther than many initiatives being pursued by the Bush administration or by experimental state and local school authorities. Among other things, the report proposes starting school for most children at age 3, and requiring all students to pass board exams to graduate from high school, which for many would end after 10th grade. Students could then go to a community or technical college, or spend two years preparing for selective colleges and universities.

[Everett]

What, someone finally realised that we are lagging behind other countries?

I am strongly in favour of revamping the factory public school system, but when was the last time that education reform actually accomplished something?

An ambitious proposal though quite possibly doomed to failure.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

What, someone finally realised that we are lagging behind other countries?

I am strongly in favour of revamping the factory public school system, but when was the last time that education reform actually accomplished something?

An ambitious proposal though quite possibly doomed to failure.

But that would be mean that they would have make some radical decisions towards actually reforming the education industry, which probably benefits business (and Political ideologues) more than kids. (The real fear being that America - or Ireland - will lose it's sacred economic competitiveness if it did so.)

So, it will never happen.

Actually, If I read these proposals right, then that will mean only a more centralized Education system. Which would be a disaster.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Bad idea

[Alcon]

Bad idea

Why?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Bad idea

Why?

Greater centralization of education is almost always a big mistake. Some of the other ideas look less than pleasant as well.

[Inverted Things]

The biggest problem with education reform is that any idiot with a degree in education considers him/herself an expert in the field. These morons experts then disagree with all of the other morons experts about how to improve schools.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Bad idea

Why?

Greater centralization of education is almost always a big mistake. Some of the other ideas look less than pleasant as well.

So you're in favor of the situation on long island where there are poor school districts that spend something like a third as much as the adjacent school district?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Bad idea

Why?

Greater centralization of education is almost always a big mistake. Some of the other ideas look less than pleasant as well.

So you're in favor of the situation on long island where there are poor school districts that spend something like a third as much as the adjacent school district?

No, of course I'm not. But the idea that greater centralization would mean a better deal for schools in poorer areas is foolish.

[bullmoose88]

I don't trust a report with Rod Paige as one of its authors.

[Beet]

An ambitious proposal though quite possibly doomed to failure.

You mean absolute, positively, "death, taxes, and the failure of the 2006 New Commission and the Skills of the American workforce Comission plan" certain, failure, my name is Peter Pan, pigs fly, and killer tomatoes launch an invasion of the Seychelles certain, failure? George Washington rises from the dead just so I can have dinner with him tommorrow night certain failure? THAT certain failure?

You could be right.

Anyway, this is a good plan.

[Everett]

An ambitious proposal though quite possibly doomed to failure.

You mean absolute, positively, "death, taxes, and the failure of the 2006 New Commission and the Skills of the American workforce Comission plan" certain, failure, my name is Peter Pan, pigs fly, and killer tomatoes launch an invasion of the Seychelles certain, failure? George Washington rises from the dead just so I can have dinner with him tommorrow night certain failure? THAT certain failure?

You could be right.

Anyway, this is a good plan.

I can never be certain about anything, but I am very cynical nonetheless. >P

People tend to screw up whenever attempting to implement good plans, which is why I'm not getting my hopes up too high.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

The Education system globally, not just in America or Ireland, might work better if it's core decisions were left up to teachers and educationalists and not politicians and business leaders who have other less-benign interests.

The Factory-like Irish education system is an example of the above. For Example in recent years the big Debate on Education here has been the decline of students dropping Science after 3rd Year (About 15 or so) - which is a huge number. The main Issue in the debate is whether or not having good science gradutes is bad for the Irish Economy, not bad for the students who lack basic science knowledge as Ireland has high rate of employment in the IT Sector. Every year it's the same - Business leaders proclaiming "Irish Economy will collapse if more students refuse to do Science" - which is sounding more and more like a threat.

And I haven't mentioned compulsory Irish in schools, which is politically-driven tokenism not student-driven.

[Inverted Things]

The Education system globally, not just in America or Ireland, might work better if it's core decisions were left up to teachers and educationalists and not politicians and business leaders who have other less-benign interests.

Completely disagree. Look at teachers unions: they're very powerful, and they get basically whatever they want. I've had teachers tell me "it's not job to try to motivate kids." Teachers are a part of the problem.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

The Education system globally, not just in America or Ireland, might work better if it's core decisions were left up to teachers and educationalists and not politicians and business leaders who have other less-benign interests.

Completely disagree. Look at teachers unions: they're very powerful, and they get basically whatever they want. I've had teachers tell me "it's not job to try to motivate kids." Teachers are a part of the problem.

I left Unions out of my little rant there - I've never understand why in the Unions (and in Politics, maybe?) that the worst people of each profession are chosen to lead. Many Unions around here are quasi-corrupt organizations whose leaders only care about money and their own self-imporance. A few years back there was a Teacher's strike (which threatened the all-Important State exams) when I was still at school; most 'lay' teachers - or at least the ones I knew - opposed the strike but had to stop working any way, only those at the top were the greatest supporters.

No - extending my early point, is that too many Interest groups, who have only their own interests and not those of students are currently running the Education system. Generally I would be in favour of home-schooling; if only it wasn't the last refuge of the religiously insane.

PS: I hope those teachers who said that were fired, though I imagine not; Most teachers though start off somewhat idealistically and get worn down by the system and the way things are. Plus Teaching is sadly not seen as a very glamorous occupation. Even though it's one of the most important.

[Nation]

I don't trust a report with Rod Paige as one of its authors.

[Beet]

An ambitious proposal though quite possibly doomed to failure.

You mean absolute, positively, "death, taxes, and the failure of the 2006 New Commission and the Skills of the American workforce Comission plan" certain, failure, my name is Peter Pan, pigs fly, and killer tomatoes launch an invasion of the Seychelles certain, failure? George Washington rises from the dead just so I can have dinner with him tommorrow night certain failure? THAT certain failure?

You could be right.

Anyway, this is a good plan.

I can never be certain about anything, but I am very cynical nonetheless. >P

People tend to screw up whenever attempting to implement good plans, which is why I'm not getting my hopes up too high.

So we've screwed up civilization, eh?

[John Dibble]

I left Unions out of my little rant there - I've never understand why in the Unions (and in Politics, maybe?) that the worst people of each profession are chosen to lead. Many Unions around here are quasi-corrupt organizations whose leaders only care about money and their own self-imporance.

I think you answerd your lack of understanding in sentence one with sentence two - the worst often become the leaders because they are busy stabbing people in the back and trying to get away with doing the least possible while the good ones are actually busy teaching their students or doing whatever their particular profession actually requires. It's surprising how much effort people will put in to ensure they can be lazy, lol.

[Inverted Things]

Back to topic: start school at 3? What the f-ck? My parents had all three of their kids reading and doing multiplication by age 4. The same results would not have been attained with teachers.

This part of the plan seems to cater to the segment of the population who views school as free daycare. F-ck that.

The other part of the plan, letting students off 2 years early if they're prepared. I can get behind that.

Anyway, it's well established that education majors as a group have the lowest standardized test scores out of any college major. Therefore, we put the dumbest people who can scrape together a college degree in charge of teaching our students. And we wonder why our schools suck. Until we address this issue, the sweeping reforms will all end up with our schools sucking just as much.

[Beet]

This part of the plan seems to cater to the segment of the population who views school as free daycare. F-ck that.

Why not look at what's the best policy and not who it "caters" to? If the best policy is to start school at 3 then they should start school at 3. If it's to start school at 13 then they should start school at 13. You shouldn't oppose something just because it "caters" to something you don't like.

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I once told a girl that I was interested in that I wanted to be a teacher. Her reaction was totally incredulous, "why?" I think at some level teachers are seen as losers, who couldn't make it in whatever field that they teach. Sure we say their job is important, etc. etc. but few ambitious people really want to be a teacher.

[Inverted Things]

You shouldn't oppose something just because it "caters" to something you don't like.

I'll oppose what I want, and for any reason I want.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I once told a girl that I was interested in that I wanted to be a teacher. Her reaction was totally incredulous, "why?" I think at some level teachers are seen as losers, who couldn't make it in whatever field that they teach. Sure we say their job is important, etc. etc. but few ambitious people really want to be a teacher.
[/quote]

I think most of the problem is money. Money provides motivation for the ambitious. Teachers salaries are based on their education and seniority. Further, it's a very safe job; it's pretty hard to get fired as a teacher. We ought to change that. Enable the firing of bad teachers, and pay the good ones more. The lure of more money may attract more ambitious types, while the risk of getting fired may repel the losers from the profession.

[David S]

Michigan moved education from mostly local control to state control quite a few years ago. That also changed the way the schools were funded. Previously it was local property taxes. Now its mostly state sales taxes which were raised from 4% to 6% to provide the funding.

Results:
The Detroit schools which sucked before still suck, although their funding per pupil is now about the same as other schools in the state. Schools which did well before still do well.

The cut in property tax was a welcome relief. Before the change, older retirees were being forced out of their homes because they could no longer afford the taxes. The sales taxes don't seem quite so onerous.

One part of the competitiveness picture which they did not discuss is cost. There are well educated people in India and China who will work for a fraction of what American's get. Unless that problem is resolved the jobs will flow out of America.

[Beet]

You shouldn't oppose something just because it "caters" to something you don't like.

I'll oppose what I want, and for any reason I want.

Oh, I never said you couldn't take a stance based on bullheadedness, only that you shouldn't.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I once told a girl that I was interested in that I wanted to be a teacher. Her reaction was totally incredulous, "why?" I think at some level teachers are seen as losers, who couldn't make it in whatever field that they teach. Sure we say their job is important, etc. etc. but few ambitious people really want to be a teacher.
[/quote]

I think most of the problem is money. Money provides motivation for the ambitious. Teachers salaries are based on their education and seniority. Further, it's a very safe job; it's pretty hard to get fired as a teacher. We ought to change that. Enable the firing of bad teachers, and pay the good ones more. The lure of more money may attract more ambitious types, while the risk of getting fired may repel the losers from the profession.
[/quote]

I agree.

[bullmoose88]

One part of the competitiveness picture which they did not discuss is cost. There are well educated people in India and China who will work for a fraction of what American's get. Unless that problem is resolved the jobs will flow out of America.

That's part of the problem yes, but due to the problem of non tradables (homes, haircuts, dinner etc), they can afford to work for a fraction of what their american counterpart works for.

Wages are downward rigid (who in their right mind takes a pay cut), especially so when the cost of goods is high.

[Frodo]

I know this isn't one of the recommendations mentioned by this panel, but a number of mayors of major cities (most notably New York City and Washington, D.C.) have (or are considering) taken direct control over the cities' school systems away from elected school boards and supervisors.  How effective has this been compared to the previous status quo?