Reform Atlasia Plan

[True Democrat]

A Vote of No Confidence can only be called once every two weeks unless a majority of the Senate calls for a Vote of No Confidence before the time limit is up.

I assume you mean the National Assembly, not the Senate.

[True Democrat]

Ernest, make you sure in your amendments you mention that Senators are only elected by districts, drawn up by the Supreme Court, and there should be six districts.

[afleitch]

Thank you Ernest for drafting the legislation in the form of a comprehensive, but not complicated, bill.

[Emsworth]

I definitely think that a convention should be called. The power to shape the future structure of the government should be exercised by a body larger than the Senate.

[Peter]

General Assembly Amendment

Section 1. Congress
The legislative powers of the Republic of Atlasia that have heretofore been invested in the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia shall hereafter be invested in the Congress of the Republic of Atlasia which shall consist of two houses: the General Assembly and the Senate, which shall, save as provided in this amendment, jointly possess the powers now held by the Senate, with the separate approval of both houses required with the same quorum and majority as now required of the Senate.

Given that the Regions will be abolished, I think that the powers of the new Congress need to be expanded to all legislative powers not otherwise denied as opposed to simply those of the present Senate.

[Colin]

Ernest just a few quibbles. First change General Assembly to National Assembly as per the Plan.

Secondly I do not think the National Assembly will select a Speaker. I think that the Speaker's job could be handled by the Prime Minister since he sets the legislative agenda he would have control over the opening of legislation and voting, under the procedures put forward by the National Assembly. I do not believe a Speaker is necessary nor needed. The NA is small to begin with and with 7% of its lawmakers in an almost non-partisan and not really needed position it would hurt the effectiveness of coalition building.

Third instead of the speaker being caretaker the outgoing Prime Minister stays in office until a new PM is found.

I also agree with Peter that the House should have all legislative powers that are not the domain of the Senate.

[Democratic Hawk]

While I accept that legislation would orginate in the General, or National, Assembly and once it passes be referred to the Senate; would it be possible for Senators to still propose their own legislative initiatives for the Assembly to consider or not?

'Hawk'

[afleitch]

While I accept that legislation would orginate in the General, or National, Assembly and once it passes be referred to the Senate; would it be possible for Senators to still propose their own legislative initiatives for the Assembly to consider or not?

'Hawk'

I asked a very similar question myself when it was being drafted as I had reservations over how the system would work. I would hope that Senators, individually or collectively would be able to 'partner' with like minded assembly members in order to propose legislation (in the same way citizens can lobby sympathetic Senators) within the Assembly. That way we don't have a 'rubber stamp Senate' but two houses that are inevevitibly bound together in the legislative process.

The Senate will still have the authority to reject legislation and propose amendments that will then be passed back to the Assembly.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

While I accept that legislation would orginate in the General, or National, Assembly and once it passes be referred to the Senate; would it be possible for Senators to still propose their own legislative initiatives for the Assembly to consider or not?

'Hawk'

I asked a very similar question myself when it was being drafted as I had reservations over how the system would work. I would hope that Senators, individually or collectively would be able to 'partner' with like minded assembly members in order to propose legislation (in the same way citizens can lobby sympathetic Senators) within the Assembly. That way we don't have a 'rubber stamp Senate' but two houses that are inevevitibly bound together in the legislative process.

The Senate will still have the authority to reject legislation and propose amendments that will then be passed back to the Assembly.

I addressed that concern somewhat with a tweak.  I have the Senate still able to consider stuff on its own, but anything that passes the Assembly automatically moves to the front of the Senate calendar.  That way the Senate doesn't have to stand around doing nothing at the start of a session until a bill has passed the Assembly.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Ernest just a few quibbles. First change General Assembly to National Assembly as per the Plan.

Will do, but be prepared for an amendment over the name when this does reach the Senate floor, as I prefer GA to NA.

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There is nothing that requires the Speaker to be a Representative, and unless we intend to pass these amendments as a block instead of as separate amendments, the General Assembly does need a presiding officer until the post of Prime Minister is established. That said, I would not be opposed to in the Prime Minister Amendment providing for the abolishment of the post of Speaker.

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We do need someone to serve as caretaker head of government in the event of a resignation, and as long as we have established that point of procedure, using the same officeholder as the caretaker in the event of a VoNC seems logical to me.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Ernest, make you sure in your amendments you mention that Senators are only elected by districts, drawn up by the Supreme Court, and there should be six districts.

I did so in the Abolition of Regions Amendment, though I have to say with Regions abolished, we do need a change in the method of approving amendments.  Replace the current five separate Regional votes with a National vote, and if so do we require a majority or a supermajority?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I definitely think that a convention should be called. The power to shape the future structure of the government should be exercised by a body larger than the Senate.

NO.  If we're going to do this, I don't want us to waste the four to six months that experience shows will be required for a convention.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

General Assembly Amendment

Section 1. Congress
The legislative powers of the Republic of Atlasia that have heretofore been invested in the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia shall hereafter be invested in the Congress of the Republic of Atlasia which shall consist of two houses: the General Assembly and the Senate, which shall, save as provided in this amendment, jointly possess the powers now held by the Senate, with the separate approval of both houses required with the same quorum and majority as now required of the Senate.

Given that the Regions will be abolished, I think that the powers of the new Congress need to be expanded to all legislative powers not otherwise denied as opposed to simply those of the present Senate.

If so, it be sensible to do that in the Amendment that abolishes the Regions, not the one that establishes the Assembly.  That said, I'd prefer to keep the State governments around as something that the GM can use to complicate things for interact with the government that we actually elect.

[True Democrat]

Ernest, instead of writing a package of amendments, why not just write an entirely new constitution as one amendment.  Or, we could just write a new constitution, go in to the convention, and vote on it right away.

[Colin]

Ernest, instead of writing a package of amendments, why not just write an entirely new constitution as one amendment.  Or, we could just write a new constitution, go in to the convention, and vote on it right away.

I have to agree. Having it drawn up piecemeal probably wont work. We could likely be stopped at some half-step. So that we have the President of the Senate, the National Assembly but no Prime Minister or abolishment of the Regions. Or we could have a President, No Regions, and a 6 member Senate. Or we could be left with any number of odd and varying combinations that could leave the Government of Atlasia is an odd tangle between the reformed governmnet and the old government.

[True Democrat]

Ernest, instead of writing a package of amendments, why not just write an entirely new constitution as one amendment.  Or, we could just write a new constitution, go in to the convention, and vote on it right away.

I have to agree. Having it drawn up piecemeal probably wont work. We could likely be stopped at some half-step. So that we have the President of the Senate, the National Assembly but no Prime Minister or abolishment of the Regions. Or we could have a President, No Regions, and a 6 member Senate. Or we could be left with any number of odd and varying combinations that could leave the Government of Atlasia is an odd tangle between the reformed governmnet and the old government.

I started writing the new constitution.

[Colin]

General Assembly Amendment

Section 1. Congress
The legislative powers of the Republic of Atlasia that have heretofore been invested in the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia shall hereafter be invested in the Congress of the Republic of Atlasia which shall consist of two houses: the General Assembly and the Senate, which shall, save as provided in this amendment, jointly possess the powers now held by the Senate, with the separate approval of both houses required with the same quorum and majority as now required of the Senate.

Given that the Regions will be abolished, I think that the powers of the new Congress need to be expanded to all legislative powers not otherwise denied as opposed to simply those of the present Senate.

If so, it be sensible to do that in the Amendment that abolishes the Regions, not the one that establishes the Assembly.  That said, I'd prefer to keep the State governments around as something that the GM can use to complicate things for interact with the government that we actually elect.

What point would they serve though? Just as fake government's acted out by the GM? I see what you're trying to get at but I think this would put too much power into the hands of the GM and if its something akin to states having actually governments, ie I declare myself Governor of Pennsylvania, wont that just be the complete chaos and world of random titles that was the reason Atlasia became a Constitutional government in the first place?

I addressed that concern somewhat with a tweak.  I have the Senate still able to consider stuff on its own, but anything that passes the Assembly automatically moves to the front of the Senate calendar.  That way the Senate doesn't have to stand around doing nothing at the start of a session until a bill has passed the Assembly.

I'm sorry to again disagree with you Ernest but I believe that that is a horrible plan. When this plan was being written up what we wanted to keep in the upper house was some vestige of the executive system in place within a parliamentary structure. By giving the Senate the power to form legislation than this is combining the two, giving veto and legislative power to the highest office of government. What is a good compromise option is that the Senate is able to formulate Resolutions on its own, so while it cannot formulate legislation it can write resolutions and force its hand with the lower house.

I also do not consider the gap between the Lower and Upper Houses all that large. A party represented in the National Assembly is likely to have some representation in the Senate and vice versa. If ordinary citizens now can pop into Senator Hawk's Office, or your office, or mine, and propose a piece of legislation that will ultimately be proposed by us, I have yet to see a piece of legislation submitted by a citizen be turned down, I'm sure a Senator will have the clout and the allies to get something moving within the National Assembly.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Given that the Regions will be abolished, I think that the powers of the new Congress need to be expanded to all legislative powers not otherwise denied as opposed to simply those of the present Senate.

If so, it be sensible to do that in the Amendment that abolishes the Regions, not the one that establishes the Assembly.  That said, I'd prefer to keep the State governments around as something that the GM can use to complicate things for interact with the government that we actually elect.

What point would they serve though? Just as fake government's acted out by the GM? I see what you're trying to get at but I think this would put too much power into the hands of the GM and if its something akin to states having actually governments, ie I declare myself Governor of Pennsylvania, wont that just be the complete chaos and world of random titles that was the reason Atlasia became a Constitutional government in the first place?

We already give the GM power to be foreign governments, if you are too worried that giving him the power to play the local governments would be too much power I could see trying to have multiple GM's with different portfolios.  I agree that having self-declared State leaders would be too much.

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I'm sorry to again disagree with you Ernest but I believe that that is a horrible plan. When this plan was being written up what we wanted to keep in the upper house was some vestige of the executive system in place within a parliamentary structure. By giving the Senate the power to form legislation than this is combining the two, giving veto and legislative power to the highest office of government. What is a good compromise option is that the Senate is able to formulate Resolutions on its own, so while it cannot formulate legislation it can write resolutions and force its hand with the lower house.

I also do not consider the gap between the Lower and Upper Houses all that large. A party represented in the National Assembly is likely to have some representation in the Senate and vice versa. If ordinary citizens now can pop into Senator Hawk's Office, or your office, or mine, and propose a piece of legislation that will ultimately be proposed by us, I have yet to see a piece of legislation submitted by a citizen be turned down, I'm sure a Senator will have the clout and the allies to get something moving within the National Assembly.
[/quote]

You are optimistic about the speed with which legislation will pass the Assembly and I am pessimistic.  Also the Assembly under this plan will be considering budget bills that will further slow down the flow of bills to the Senate, as not all bills it deals with will require Senate approval.

[True Democrat]

I'm completely done with the new constitution, if anybody wants to see it.

[Brandon H]

Ernest just a few quibbles. First change General Assembly to National Assembly as per the Plan.

Will do, but be prepared for an amendment over the name when this does reach the Senate floor, as I prefer GA to NA.

Or we could call it a House of Representatives.

[Brandon H]

Ernest just a few quibbles. First change General Assembly to National Assembly as per the Plan.

Will do, but be prepared for an amendment over the name when this does reach the Senate floor, as I prefer GA to NA.

Or we could call it a House of Representatives.

Ernest, instead of writing a package of amendments, why not just write an entirely new constitution as one amendment.  Or, we could just write a new constitution, go in to the convention, and vote on it right away.

I have to agree. Having it drawn up piecemeal probably wont work. We could likely be stopped at some half-step. So that we have the President of the Senate, the National Assembly but no Prime Minister or abolishment of the Regions. Or we could have a President, No Regions, and a 6 member Senate. Or we could be left with any number of odd and varying combinations that could leave the Government of Atlasia is an odd tangle between the reformed governmnet and the old government.

I prefer separate Amendments. I like a lower House (what ever it is called), but opposed to a Prime Minister. Lumping it all together is almost like the real Congress throwing all kinds of bills together (like an Internet Gambling Ban and Port Security). I'm sure others have various opinions on different parts.

If these Amendments are written properly most of the possible gaps will not exist. If there are gaps, then the Amendments will need to be voted on a certain order and if one fails and the belief is the second one would not work without the first, then don't put the second up to a vote.

We already give the GM power to be foreign governments, if you are too worried that giving him the power to play the local governments would be too much power I could see trying to have multiple GM's with different portfolios.  I agree that having self-declared State leaders would be too much.

I like the idea of multiple GMs but as stated before, we had enough trouble finding one GM. Multiple GMs would be even harder.

[True Democrat]

Doing this as separate amendments is way too confusing.  I say we debate this, and then agree on it as a nation, call a constitutional convention, and then just pass the constitution quickly.  The first elections for this constitution take place in February.

[Colin]

Given that the Regions will be abolished, I think that the powers of the new Congress need to be expanded to all legislative powers not otherwise denied as opposed to simply those of the present Senate.

If so, it be sensible to do that in the Amendment that abolishes the Regions, not the one that establishes the Assembly.  That said, I'd prefer to keep the State governments around as something that the GM can use to complicate things for interact with the government that we actually elect.

What point would they serve though? Just as fake government's acted out by the GM? I see what you're trying to get at but I think this would put too much power into the hands of the GM and if its something akin to states having actually governments, ie I declare myself Governor of Pennsylvania, wont that just be the complete chaos and world of random titles that was the reason Atlasia became a Constitutional government in the first place?

We already give the GM power to be foreign governments, if you are too worried that giving him the power to play the local governments would be too much power I could see trying to have multiple GM's with different portfolios.  I agree that having self-declared State leaders would be too much.

Alright I understand. However I believe that it would be best not to codify the exact workings of the GM within the constitution at this time but leave that open to debate within the National Assembly and Senate as well as possibly a later amendment.

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I'm sorry to again disagree with you Ernest but I believe that that is a horrible plan. When this plan was being written up what we wanted to keep in the upper house was some vestige of the executive system in place within a parliamentary structure. By giving the Senate the power to form legislation than this is combining the two, giving veto and legislative power to the highest office of government. What is a good compromise option is that the Senate is able to formulate Resolutions on its own, so while it cannot formulate legislation it can write resolutions and force its hand with the lower house.

I also do not consider the gap between the Lower and Upper Houses all that large. A party represented in the National Assembly is likely to have some representation in the Senate and vice versa. If ordinary citizens now can pop into Senator Hawk's Office, or your office, or mine, and propose a piece of legislation that will ultimately be proposed by us, I have yet to see a piece of legislation submitted by a citizen be turned down, I'm sure a Senator will have the clout and the allies to get something moving within the National Assembly.
[/quote]

You are optimistic about the speed with which legislation will pass the Assembly and I am pessimistic.  Also the Assembly under this plan will be considering budget bills that will further slow down the flow of bills to the Senate, as not all bills it deals with will require Senate approval.
[/quote]

What does the speed have anything to do with it? I do not want the Senate to begin legislation. I am, however, fine with it passing resolutions and the like as long as its not actually originating legislation. I'm guessing that something could be included that states that the Assembly leave open one space in its legislative agenda for bills petitioned for by a member of the Senate, however I believe that this could be addressed through procedural resolution within the National Assembly and nothing more.

We must all remember, not only you but also a few others, that we don't have to solve every crisis and problem with this Constitution but only build up the framework. Certain issues can be addressed through legislation and procedural matters than through the Constitution directly. Some things that some want set in stone should rather be written into wax, editable and changeable through the legislative process instead of the more menacing and challenging amendment process.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

What does the speed have anything to do with it? I do not want the Senate to begin legislation. I am, however, fine with it passing resolutions and the like as long as its not actually originating legislation. I'm guessing that something could be included that states that the Assembly leave open one space in its legislative agenda for bills petitioned for by a member of the Senate, however I believe that this could be addressed through procedural resolution within the National Assembly and nothing more.

You may be fine with the Senate twiddling its thumbs for a couple of weeks at the start of each Assembly, but I'm not.

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True, that's why for example I tweaked the proposal so that the number of Assemblymen/Representatives/Burgesses/whatever and how they are apportioned to parties is changeable without a further amendment.

[True Democrat]

What does the speed have anything to do with it? I do not want the Senate to begin legislation. I am, however, fine with it passing resolutions and the like as long as its not actually originating legislation. I'm guessing that something could be included that states that the Assembly leave open one space in its legislative agenda for bills petitioned for by a member of the Senate, however I believe that this could be addressed through procedural resolution within the National Assembly and nothing more.

You may be fine with the Senate twiddling its thumbs for a couple of weeks at the start of each Assembly, but I'm not.

What does the President do at the beginning of every session?