Sundown towns

[RBH]

Publishers weekly review of the Sundown Towns book:

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An online database of suspected Sundown towns: http://www.uvm.edu/~jloewen/content.php?file=sundowntowns-whitemap.html

With a pretty large number of former and possibly current towns in Missouri, Indiana, and Illinois. The book mentions more from Illinois, the database includes 97 entries from Missouri.

The book also mentions how the majority of those towns were in the North.

So if there's some coherant electoral trends to these areas, then that would be interesting.

[Alcon]

This is interesting, but I'm not quite sure what to make of how willingly they accept isolated anecdotal evidence as proof that a town is still a "sundown town."

[Filuwaúrdjan]

This is interesting, but I'm not quite sure what to make of how willingly they accept isolated anecdotal evidence as proof that a town is still a "sundown town."

^^^

"In 2003, a Detroit resident and black history expert
reported that he refuses to go to the Upper Peninsula
because it is full of KKK towns. There a few black
people living in the area, but not many."

[RBH]

This is interesting, but I'm not quite sure what to make of how willingly they accept isolated anecdotal evidence as proof that a town is still a "sundown town."

Some of it would involve historical events. Such as the various counties where the African-American population plunged in the late 18th Century. Such as in Southwest Missouri.

Since towns aren't blatantly hanging signs, a lot of the process for figuring out the towns today is a bit more difficult.

[Alcon]

This is interesting, but I'm not quite sure what to make of how willingly they accept isolated anecdotal evidence as proof that a town is still a "sundown town."

Some of it would involve historical events. Such as the various counties where the African-American population plunged in the late 18th Century. Such as in Southwest Missouri.

Since towns aren't blatantly hanging signs, a lot of the process for figuring out the towns today is a bit more difficult.

Some of it seems to be based on virtually nothing, as in Chehalis, Oregon, which is identified as "probably" still a sundown town because it is lily-white.  That's not fair, and a standard not applied to other cities.  My neighbourhood is lily-white too.  Few would bat an eye at a black person being out after dark.

Also, I'm a little bit bothered by the additional fact that Chehalis, Oregon, does not exist.

I assume they mean Chehalis, Washington, which has an identically-named school.  And it still offers no real proof, beyond some person saying there are no Chinese restaurants in Chehalis.  The phonebook strongly disagrees.  Both are glaring, easily researched errors.

It feels bothersomely unacademic to me.

[Nym90]

This is interesting, but I'm not quite sure what to make of how willingly they accept isolated anecdotal evidence as proof that a town is still a "sundown town."

^^^

"In 2003, a Detroit resident and black history expert
reported that he refuses to go to the Upper Peninsula
because it is full of KKK towns. There a few black
people living in the area, but not many."

There is absolutely no KKK presence here whatsoever. Yes, there are few blacks, but that's by their choice.

[opebo]

sure Nym.

Growing up in exurban and rural Missouri I remember hearing many tales of black families being run out of towns in the 'old days'.  The most commonplace was either burning down their house or throwing in a stick of dynamite.

It is no coincidence that the small town black population is concentrated - for example in Jefferson County almost all lived in Crystal City or Festus, while lots of other towns to this day have almost no blacks whatsoever.

[Nym90]

sure Nym.

Growing up in exurban and rural Missouri I remember hearing many tales of black families being run out of towns in the 'old days'.  The most commonplace was either burning down their house or throwing in a stick of dynamite.

It is no coincidence that the small town black population is concentrated - for example in Jefferson County almost all lived in Crystal City or Festus, while lots of other towns to this day have almost no blacks whatsoever.

Well, there have always been very few blacks here, and if there were a larger population, perhaps you'd have seen some things like that. But I know that the KKK certainly has no organized presence here, and the blacks that do live here (mostly in Marquette due to the university campus) have never had any particular incidents like that which you mention.

Now granted, anyone living in a place in which 99 percent of the residents are of a different race is probably going to feel a bit uncomfortable, and this would be true of either blacks or whites, so I can understand blacks from Detroit feeling "weird" about coming up here, just as most whites would feel the same way in Detroit.

[opebo]

This seems a bit overblown to me.

Very humorous, considering the use of dynamite by the sundowners!  Good one dazzleman.

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Hah, leave it to you to blame the victim as always, racist.

[memphis]

I reluctantly have to side with Dazzleman in this one. Many white people are suspicious of blacks because of past experiences (I suppose that works both ways though). Coming from a majority black city, I can tell you that as soon as a neighborhood turns majority black, property values go down, crime goes up, unattractive businesses (pawn shops, liquor stores, title loan shops) pop up everywhere and commercial vacancies mushroom. This has happenned again and again here in Memphis, most recently in the Southeastern suburbs, where I used to work. I know this sounds cliche, but I really do have a black lady across the street from me and I really have no problem with her whatsoever. That being said, I really would not be happy if my neighborhood became predominently black. I doubt my neighbor would either, considering she clearly chose to live in a white neighborhood. Obviously, I would not support force to keep blacks out.

[Padfoot]

I reluctantly have to side with Dazzleman in this one. Many white people are suspicious of blacks because of past experiences (I suppose that works both ways though). Coming from a majority black city, I can tell you that as soon as a neighborhood turns majority black, property values go down, crime goes up, unattractive businesses (pawn shops, liquor stores, title loan shops) pop up everywhere and commercial vacancies mushroom. This has happenned again and again here in Memphis, most recently in the Southeastern suburbs, where I used to work. I know this sounds cliche, but I really do have a black lady across the street from me and I really have no problem with her whatsoever. That being said, I really would not be happy if my neighborhood became predominently black. I doubt my neighbor would either, considering she clearly chose to live in a white neighborhood. Obviously, I would not support force to keep blacks out.

Does this occur even if the blacks moving in are middle class and their kids do well in school?  IMO, modern day white flight has more to do with economic class differences and school safety/performance than it does with race.  Obviously race is closely tied to both of these things due to the racial history of the country but I think people are less concerned with racial mixing and more concerned with class mixing and safety.  The middle and lower classes have very different values and priorities making it difficult for them to relate to each other even without the added barrier of race.

[minionofmidas]

I reluctantly have to side with Dazzleman in this one. Many white people are suspicious of blacks because of past experiences (I suppose that works both ways though). Coming from a majority black city, I can tell you that as soon as a neighborhood turns majority black, property values go down, crime goes up, unattractive businesses (pawn shops, liquor stores, title loan shops) pop up everywhere and commercial vacancies mushroom. This has happenned again and again here in Memphis, most recently in the Southeastern suburbs, where I used to work. I know this sounds cliche, but I really do have a black lady across the street from me and I really have no problem with her whatsoever. That being said, I really would not be happy if my neighborhood became predominently black. I doubt my neighbor would either, considering she clearly chose to live in a white neighborhood. Obviously, I would not support force to keep blacks out.

Does this occur even if the blacks moving in are middle class and their kids do well in school?  IMO, modern day white flight has more to do with economic class differences and school safety/performance than it does with race.  Obviously race is closely tied to both of these things due to the racial history of the country but I think people are less concerned with racial mixing and more concerned with class mixing and safety.  The middle and lower classes have very different values and priorities making it difficult for them to relate to each other even without the added barrier of race.

Actually... in MOST White Flight areas of the past few decades the Blacks moving in were middle class Blacks - they're far more likely both to be able to leave the Ghetto, and to want to do so.

Check Brooklyn's neighborhood councils. There's a lot that are non-changing heavily Black, a lot that are heavily White with an increasing Hispanic and Asian presence but no increasing Black presence, a few Hispanic areas with either White OR Black undercurrents (probably the former majority), and Downtown Brooklyn is gentrifying and getting Whiter. And there's the large one in the far Southeast, forget what it's called. That went from 70% White 25% Black in 1990 to 51% Black 35% White in 2000.
It was also the second richest of these neighborhoods in 2000.

[memphis]

I reluctantly have to side with Dazzleman in this one. Many white people are suspicious of blacks because of past experiences (I suppose that works both ways though). Coming from a majority black city, I can tell you that as soon as a neighborhood turns majority black, property values go down, crime goes up, unattractive businesses (pawn shops, liquor stores, title loan shops) pop up everywhere and commercial vacancies mushroom. This has happenned again and again here in Memphis, most recently in the Southeastern suburbs, where I used to work. I know this sounds cliche, but I really do have a black lady across the street from me and I really have no problem with her whatsoever. That being said, I really would not be happy if my neighborhood became predominently black. I doubt my neighbor would either, considering she clearly chose to live in a white neighborhood. Obviously, I would not support force to keep blacks out.

Does this occur even if the blacks moving in are middle class and their kids do well in school?  IMO, modern day white flight has more to do with economic class differences and school safety/performance than it does with race.  Obviously race is closely tied to both of these things due to the racial history of the country but I think people are less concerned with racial mixing and more concerned with class mixing and safety.  The middle and lower classes have very different values and priorities making it difficult for them to relate to each other even without the added barrier of race.

The area of Memphis I'm thinking of (Hickory Hill) is a solidly middle class black neighborhood. Until about ten years ago it was middle class (maybe even a hair above middle)white suburbia. It's one of the nicest black neighborhoods in town and certainly not an urban ghetto, but it's getting worse every day. There's not too much optimism toward the area, so you can buy a 2,000 square foot house for about $100,000.The building that used to be Target is now "Big Daddy's Pawn Shop, the mall out there has more vacancies than you can count, including a huge whole where Dillard's used to be. There are quite a few abandoned big boxes. I used to deliver pizzas out there, and it's not that bad a neighborhood really, but it's not what it used to be and the prognosis is poor, as now the better off blacks are starting to leave too. Whitehaven, the neighborhood where Graceland is, is about 15-20 years further along in this process (went black about 1980). I wouldn't want to go there under any circumstances today, as it is a nasty rundown slum. Maybe BRTD should move there.

[opebo]

Actually... in MOST White Flight areas of the past few decades the Blacks moving in were middle class Blacks - they're far more likely both to be able to leave the Ghetto, and to want to do so.

Correct Lewis Trondheim - the blacks the whites flee are the middle class uncle toms they claim to condone.