The President, the Pope, and the Prime Minister

[The Man From G.O.P.]

A book I bought today by John O' Sullivan, it's about the 3 underdog leaders (Reagan, JPII, and Thatcher) bringing down the Soviet Union, anyone heard of it/read it?

[Cubby]

I saw it at work (I work at a library). I hate Reagan and I hate Thatcher so I certainly won't read the book. (I have great respect for Pope John Paul II though).

It seems aimed at Republicans only.

[The Man From G.O.P.]

I saw it at work (I work at a library). I hate Reagan and I hate Thatcher so I certainly won't read the book. (I have great respect for Pope John Paul II though).

It seems aimed at Republicans only.

Glad to see you respect the people who covered ur goofy ass, seriosly, without them things would not be the same...

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Please don't tell people are still buying into the myth that Reagan, the Neo-libs and the pope had anything other than a minute role in the collapse of the behemoth that was the Soviet Union.

Thought that had been debunked ages ago.

[Colin]

Please don't tell people are still buying into the myth that Reagan, the Neo-libs and the pope had anything other than a minute role in the collapse of the behemoth that was the Soviet Union.

Thought that had been debunked ages ago.

Well I'm pretty sure that those gobs of money that the Vatican was sending to Solidarity helped it in some way. Mostly what Reagan and Thatcher did was they pressured an already rusted hulk of a system. They sped up a collapse not started that collapse. That seems to be the prevailing thinking now, but it can only be an opinion since we can't go back in time and have Carter and Mondale be the American Presidents or get someone other than Thatcher into 10 Downing Street.

[KEmperor]

Wait, I've heard this one.  Is this the one with them in a bar and a parrot?

[minionofmidas]

The choice was between maintaining a hardline policy and encouraging their collapse, or agreeing to make things easier for them in return for better surface relations in the short run.

Reagan and Thatcher chose the former.

Reality, of course, is way more complex than that.

[Cubby]

I saw it at work (I work at a library). I hate Reagan and I hate Thatcher so I certainly won't read the book. (I have great respect for Pope John Paul II though).

It seems aimed at Republicans only.

Glad to see you respect the people who covered ur goofy ass, seriosly, without them things would not be the same...

What the hell do you mean "covered my a--"? I have no idea what you're talking about, unless you mean Thatcher and Reagan protected Americans from communism. Please tell me you don't think communism was a serious threat in the 80's. It was dead by then.

And no, contrary to Dazzleman's statements earlier, I would not have cheered on the Soviet Union just b/c I'm a liberal.

[Reaganfan]

Please don't tell people are still buying into the myth that Reagan, the Neo-libs and the pope had anything other than a minute role in the collapse of the behemoth that was the Soviet Union.

Thought that had been debunked ages ago.

You can't debunk the truth.

Reality of course is a bit more complicated.  The Soviet Union was starting to fail by the late 1970s, but few in the west knew it.  The choice was between maintaining a hardline policy and encouraging their collapse, or agreeing to make things easier for them in return for better surface relations in the short run.

Reagan and Thatcher chose the former; Carter and Mondale would definitely have chosen the latter.

Exactly, that's why Reagan's SDI or "Star Wars" kicked ass, because the Soviets knew if the U.S. had one, they would have to have one and the country was flat ass broke.

[The Man From G.O.P.]

I saw it at work (I work at a library). I hate Reagan and I hate Thatcher so I certainly won't read the book. (I have great respect for Pope John Paul II though).

It seems aimed at Republicans only.

Glad to see you respect the people who covered ur goofy ass, seriosly, without them things would not be the same...

What the hell do you mean "covered my a--"? I have no idea what you're talking about, unless you mean Thatcher and Reagan protected Americans from communism. Please tell me you don't think communism was a serious threat in the 80's. It was dead by then.

And no, contrary to Dazzleman's statements earlier, I would not have cheered on the Soviet Union just b/c I'm a liberal.

You are here and happy because of Ronald Reagan, there is no disputing that.

[J. J.]

We all owe a great deal to Ronald Reagan.  The term 'freedom fighter' is thrown around here for people who have done virtually nothing, but Reagan was a true freedom fighter.

No, Reagan was a Freedom MAKER.

[Cubby]

I saw it at work (I work at a library). I hate Reagan and I hate Thatcher so I certainly won't read the book. (I have great respect for Pope John Paul II though).

It seems aimed at Republicans only.

Glad to see you respect the people who covered ur goofy ass, seriosly, without them things would not be the same...

What the hell do you mean "covered my a--"? I have no idea what you're talking about, unless you mean Thatcher and Reagan protected Americans from communism. Please tell me you don't think communism was a serious threat in the 80's. It was dead by then.

And no, contrary to Dazzleman's statements earlier, I would not have cheered on the Soviet Union just b/c I'm a liberal.

You are here and happy because of Ronald Reagan, there is no disputing that.

We all owe a great deal to Ronald Reagan.  The term 'freedom fighter' is thrown around here for people who have done virtually nothing, but Reagan was a true freedom fighter.

This is what I can't stand about Republicans. They worship Reagan as if he was Jesus Christ. Why can't you just respect him like any other President? I don't think FDR was a god among men, he was just a great president (who made mistakes, like Japanese internment). Yet he and Churchill saved the world from right-wing fascism. So this idea that I or anyone else owes something to Reagan is kind of offensive. Russia would have collapsed on its own, without bankrupting the USA with wasteful military spending, which is what he did.

[Beet]

Reagan didn't make anything, he simply rode a wave of economic trends that came before him, that was bigger than him, and that was in no way dependent on him. He was just a pretty face and a sunny smile.

The end of the Cold War was not about communism vs. capitalism. Communism as a serious ideology died out in the 1950's, although it took about two decades longer in the third world. By the time Reagan arrived on the scene it was purely a question of authoritarian government or democratic government.

The democratic revolutions of the 1970s and 1980s were a victory for the power of developed economies (e.g., economic prosperity on the basis of diversified industrial sector, as opposed to resource wealth), combined with an educated middle class thus leading to strong civil societies. The foundations for the emergence of these elements in Latin America, Southern and Eastern Europe, and a few other areas including South Korea and Taiwan were laid down at the Bretton Woods Conference in 1944, when the world powers led by the U.S. decided on a postwar course of liberal internationalism and state guidance for economic recovery after the war and the Depression. Separately in the eastern bloc a much less successful and fatally flawed, but still substantial industrial plant was built up.

By the middle of the 1970s, three decades of strong economic growth under the abovementioned policies, in the abovementioned areas, created the necessary conditions outlined that were prerequisites for sustainable democratization under modernization theory. The democratization wave began in Spain and Portugal in 1975 and continued through to South Africa in 1994, resulting in the collapse of both communist and non-communist dictatorships.

However, at the same time that democratization wave was beginning, world economic growth suddenly slowed under the 1973 Oil Crisis and for the next 30 years. Money that flowed into resource-rich economies in the Middle East, particularly the gulf region, did not go to support genuine economic or social modernization. Economic growth rates continued to fall into the 1980s, and in the third world, well into the 1990s. In the mid-1990s, the wave of democratization suddenly slowed and stopped, and is now in some places reversing itself.

[The Man From G.O.P.]

Reagan didn't make anything, he simply rode a wave of economic trends that came before him, that was bigger than him, and that was in no way dependent on him. He was just a pretty face and a sunny smile.

The end of the Cold War was not about communism vs. capitalism. Communism as a serious ideology died out in the 1950's, although it took about two decades longer in the third world. By the time Reagan arrived on the scene it was purely a question of authoritarian government or democratic government.

The democratic revolutions of the 1970s and 1980s were a victory for the power of developed economies (e.g., economic prosperity on the basis of diversified industrial sector, as opposed to resource wealth), combined with an educated middle class thus leading to strong civil societies. The foundations for the emergence of these elements in Latin America, Southern and Eastern Europe, and a few other areas including South Korea and Taiwan were laid down at the Bretton Woods Conference in 1944, when the world powers led by the U.S. decided on a postwar course of liberal internationalism and state guidance for economic recovery after the war and the Depression. Separately in the eastern bloc a much less successful and fatally flawed, but still substantial industrial plant was built up.

By the middle of the 1970s, three decades of strong economic growth under the abovementioned policies, in the abovementioned areas, created the necessary conditions outlined that were prerequisites for sustainable democratization under modernization theory. The democratization wave began in Spain and Portugal in 1975 and continued through to South Africa in 1994, resulting in the collapse of both communist and non-communist dictatorships.

However, at the same time that democratization wave was beginning, world economic growth suddenly slowed under the 1973 Oil Crisis and for the next 30 years. Money that flowed into resource-rich economies in the Middle East, particularly the gulf region, did not go to support genuine economic or social modernization. Economic growth rates continued to fall into the 1980s, and in the third world, well into the 1990s. In the mid-1990s, the wave of democratization suddenly slowed and stopped, and is now in some places reversing itself.

You are a sad, sad clown my friend.

[Beet]

You are a sad, sad clown my friend.

Oh, did I introduce a little cognitive dissonance into your comfortable little world? I'm sorry

[The Man From G.O.P.]

You are a sad, sad clown my friend.

Oh, did I introduce a little cognitive dissonance into your comfortable little world? I'm sorry

I didn't even read it to tell you the truth, it looks like a couple paragraphs of liberal blah blah blah (the uh... obfuscation of the contusions endless pathology leads us the the conclusion that the disestablishment was in flux)
Reagan had a few things:

Guts
Personality
Margaret Thatcher
Endless military budget
An eastern Europe ready to be helped back into the real world

Add David Hasselhoff, mix well, let rise, bake at 450 for 20 minutes.

[Beet]

You are a sad, sad clown my friend.

Oh, did I introduce a little cognitive dissonance into your comfortable little world? I'm sorry

I didn't even read it to tell you the truth, it looks like a couple paragraphs of liberal blah blah blah (the uh... obfuscation of the contusions endless pathology leads us the the conclusion that the disestablishment was in flux)
Reagan had a few things:

Guts
Personality
Margaret Thatcher
Endless military budget
An eastern Europe ready to be helped back into the real world

Add David Hasselhoff, mix well, let rise, bake at 450 for 20 minutes.

I can be very simple too :
1. Modernize
2. Get Democracy

[The Man From G.O.P.]

You are a sad, sad clown my friend.

Oh, did I introduce a little cognitive dissonance into your comfortable little world? I'm sorry

I didn't even read it to tell you the truth, it looks like a couple paragraphs of liberal blah blah blah (the uh... obfuscation of the contusions endless pathology leads us the the conclusion that the disestablishment was in flux)
Reagan had a few things:

Guts
Personality
Margaret Thatcher
Endless military budget
An eastern Europe ready to be helped back into the real world

Add David Hasselhoff, mix well, let rise, bake at 450 for 20 minutes.

I can be very simple too :
1. Modernize
2. Get Democracy

That is so simple! must explain why everyone is a lovely little democracy these days, oh, wait, it does take a elader with a backbone to give (or forcefeed) it to them

[Cubby]

You are a sad, sad clown my friend.

Oh, did I introduce a little cognitive dissonance into your comfortable little world? I'm sorry

LOL.    They get upset if you say anything negative about their fearless leader. They can't look objectively at him, he's like a knight on a white horse to them, saving the world from threats that didn't exist.

Its also worth noting that TN24 doesn't respond to any evaluations of Reagan's term. He dismisses 3 paragraphs of intelligent debate as "liberalism". To discuss any of it, he'd have to acknowledge that Reagan was a mere mortal.

Reagan didn't make anything, he simply rode a wave of economic trends that came before him, that was bigger than him, and that was in no way dependent on him. He was just a pretty face and a sunny smile.

The end of the Cold War was not about communism vs. capitalism. Communism as a serious ideology died out in the 1950's, although it took about two decades longer in the third world. By the time Reagan arrived on the scene it was purely a question of authoritarian government or democratic government.

That sunny smile is part of why they idolize him. If Reagan actually had to create policies like Nixon and Bush Senior, they would like him less. The impending collapse of the USSR meant that he could do nothing yet still look like a success.

When did I say that?  I said liberals would have been inclined to accomodate the Soviet Union.  This is proven fact.

You never said it per se, but I get the impression you think liberals like communism better than capitalism. We don't, we just want capitalism to have some values other than greed.

[Beet]

You are a sad, sad clown my friend.

Oh, did I introduce a little cognitive dissonance into your comfortable little world? I'm sorry

I didn't even read it to tell you the truth, it looks like a couple paragraphs of liberal blah blah blah (the uh... obfuscation of the contusions endless pathology leads us the the conclusion that the disestablishment was in flux)
Reagan had a few things:

Guts
Personality
Margaret Thatcher
Endless military budget
An eastern Europe ready to be helped back into the real world

Add David Hasselhoff, mix well, let rise, bake at 450 for 20 minutes.

I can be very simple too :
1. Modernize
2. Get Democracy

That is so simple! must explain why everyone is a lovely little democracy these days, oh, wait, it does take a elader with a backbone to give (or forcefeed) it to them

Yes, democracy comes by force-feeding, which is why Palestine and Iraq are such wonderful democracies.

On the other hand, there are very, very few modernized nations that are not stable democracies.