Redrawing the Middle East
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Author Topic: Redrawing the Middle East  (Read 2188 times)
Middle-aged Europe
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« on: January 10, 2007, 06:41:10 PM »

This article (http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2006/06/1833899) suggests the following:


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Undisguised Sockpuppet
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« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2007, 07:37:45 PM »

Why not? Although I'd just use The Saudi area as a toxic waste dump.
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MasterJedi
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« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2007, 07:43:06 PM »

That will bring more violence than there is today. No country will ever want that to happen because they want to keep their land and not give up anything else. It's all about power.
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kashifsakhan
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2007, 08:58:44 PM »

That will bring more violence than there is today. No country will ever want that to happen because they want to keep their land and not give up anything else. It's all about power.

I agree. plus i dont see why an Arab Shia state wouldnt want to be part of Iran.
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freek
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2007, 07:12:42 AM »


I agree. plus i dont see why an Arab Shia state wouldnt want to be part of Iran.
Maybe because Iran isn't Arabic but Persian?
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2007, 07:30:12 AM »

What happens with Baghdad ? Ethnic cleansing ? "Baghdad Wall" ? A Security Fence ala Israel or US ?
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Bacon King
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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2007, 07:40:16 AM »

I'm not all too knowledgable on Middle Eastern affairs, though here's what I see wrong with the map:

-It won't really solve conflict, with the West Bank's status still as 'undetermined' it's just asking for trouble.

-It would probably be better to let the 'Islamic Sacred State' only control Mecca and Medina, kind of like the Vatican today. If you give them a significant amount of territory the nation would just become another fudamentalist haven.

-There may be some reason I don't know, but why not join Sunni Iraq with Syria?

-A Pakistan that small may cause India to try to be more aggressive in the next India-Pakistan conflict.

-I'd feel sorry for Kuwait if that Arab Shia state decides it doesn't like it.

-This could actually make some problems worse. If you redraw the borders so that a single ethnic group controls the country, a situation could easily arise where the minority groups of the area would be oppressed.
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kashifsakhan
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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2007, 10:15:37 AM »

this would just cause the whole area to go up in flames.

if whole countries are run by certain ethnic and religious groups, the minorities WILL BE CRUSHED. also it'll make it more likely for conflict between the neighboring countries.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2007, 10:19:43 AM »


I agree. plus i dont see why an Arab Shia state wouldnt want to be part of Iran.
Maybe because Iran isn't Arabic but Persian?
Southwestern Iran is as Shi'a Arabic as Southern Iraq is, and the people there did NOT like being invaded by Saddam.

The whole notion behind this is pretty absurd. Redrawing boundaries does not remove cleavages in countries, it just adds new ones.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2007, 01:00:30 PM »

The most idiotic idea on that map is Greater Lebanon.  If any border change is going to happen there it should be the transfer of the Bekka Valley to Syria from Lebanon.  Lebanon would have been a much happier and less contentious place if the French hadn't oversized Lebanon in a manner that caused it to end up less than majority Christian.
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CPT MikeyMike
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« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2007, 06:33:11 PM »

Two issues...

1. The Sunni Iraq is nothing. There are zero resources in Western Iraq. It was Saddam's outlaw land when he was in power. That region would be unstable even with it's own state.

2. An Independent Kurdistan would bring about a war with Turkey. Turkey has always had an issue with the Kurds after the Ottoman Empire fell and it's always wanted it back.
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Angel of Death
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« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2007, 05:38:08 PM »

This has been discussed before:
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=43230.0

Anyway, I don't see why Syria has to lose its coast. Seems to be a very spiteful thing to do if you don't have a compelling reason for it.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2007, 06:44:37 PM »

A rather major war would have to happen to make that map possible. And why would half of Pakistan want to Merge with Afghanistan?
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Padfoot
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« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2007, 07:17:23 PM »

Had the Europeans kept their noses out of the Middle East during the Imperial Era, we might actually see something similar to this today.  However, Wesern meddling interfered with the natural order of things and resulted in the arbitrary boundries we have today.  Maybe if this map had been drawn in 1900 or after WWI it could have made a difference.  Today, however, it is unlikely that we will ever see any major boundry changes unless widespread war breaks out involving nearly all of these countries.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2007, 07:36:58 PM »

Had the Europeans kept their noses out of the Middle East during the Imperial Era, we might actually see something similar to this today.  However, Wesern meddling interfered with the natural order of things and resulted in the arbitrary boundries we have today.  Maybe if this map had been drawn in 1900 or after WWI it could have made a difference.  Today, however, it is unlikely that we will ever see any major boundry changes unless widespread war breaks out involving nearly all of these countries.

You mean that Europe should have kept these regions under Ottoman control, or the local Feudalesque chieftains who ruled most of modern day Saudi before Oil became a major factor in the region?

Of course what the European powers (more to point, Britain and France) should have done is to have kept to the original 14 points agreement (Which Mandated an independant Kurdish state) and keep their promises to the Arabs over Independance from Ottoman Turkey instead of the "Divide and Rule" tactics which followed.

Iraq was created out of Three fairly different Ottoman Provinces which had nothing more uniting them than any of the other ex-Ottoman provinces - except that it's ethnic differences were useful for the British as it would divide any potential resistance (Of course the only thing Britain was interested in was the Oil reserves), since then only leading Thugs like Al-Bakr and Saddam kept the country together.

Now the United States wants to apply neo-imperalist tactics to the Middle East to divide the region and create new nations mainly for it's economic benefit. Don't we learn anything from History?
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Frodo
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« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2007, 10:38:46 PM »

I'm going off on a tangent, but I am curious how Africa would have been divided had European imperialists not done so themselves.  Anybody have any idea?   
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Colin
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« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2007, 11:03:11 PM »

I'm going off on a tangent, but I am curious how Africa would have been divided had European imperialists not done so themselves.  Anybody have any idea?   

That would be even crazier. Not only is it a larger area but the ethnic groupings and previous political organizations were smaller and much less well formed than most of the Middle East with the exception of the Bedouin tribes in the Arabian peninsula.
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ag
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« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2007, 09:58:05 AM »
« Edited: January 14, 2007, 09:59:39 AM by ag »



-It would probably be better to let the 'Islamic Sacred State' only control Mecca and Medina, kind of like the Vatican today. If you give them a significant amount of territory the nation would just become another fudamentalist haven.



Actually, no. The fundamentalist haven would be the Saudi area. The "Islamic State" would be dominated by the relatively cosmopolitan and sophisticated cities, and would be moderated by the need to cater to the  huge international (and inter-sect) annual hajj.  This is a very religious area - but religious in a much more sophisticated and less fanatical way than the wilder tribes of the interior Arabia.

In any case, anything like this plan could only happen after a series of very big and very nasty wars. Not worth even talking about.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2007, 10:53:28 AM »

In the middle of such a series, actually. Grin
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ag
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« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2007, 03:44:29 PM »

In the middle of such a series, actually. Grin

More like about 5% into it Sad
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Cubby
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« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2007, 11:30:46 AM »

I'm always amazed at the hostility whenever the subject of re-drawing borders comes up. People are so afraid of change.

A few ideas on the above map:

Syria and the Sunni Arab State should be joined, since as others have said the latter wouldn't have any resources.

I love the idea of a Free Kurdistan. They have suffered enough over the years and deserve a home of their own. But friendship with Turkey is extremely important to the U.S. (as it should be) and I realize they would never except this, so that would be a big stumbling block.

The remainder of Pakistan is too small. As far as I'm concerned, the state never should have existed, it was only created because Jinnah was all paranoid back in the 1940's that India would subjugate the Muslims after the British left. As we can see today, with 100 million Muslims still in India, Jinnah was wrong.
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