alcohol

[WalterMitty]

i dont want this to turn into another drug legalization debate....

but ive been thinking,,,,a lot of folks say that the dangers of certain illegal drugs (particularly marijuana) have been overstated.  cant the same be true for alcohol?

sure, alcohol is bad for your liver.  but it seems to me that the majority of drinkers, even heavy drinkers, never experience liver problems.  certainly, *alcoholism* is bad in many ways, and i dont mean to dismiss the seriousness of that disease...but what percentage of alcohol drinkers are alcoholics?

i feel that there has been a lot of propoganda spread about booze by teetotalers and the madd crowd.

and another thing, if these people are serious about doing something about the addiction problem...how about we bring the health care system into the 21st century...where everyone has access!  novel idea!  maybe then so many people wouldnt have to self medicate.

[Nym90]

Like any drug, alcohol must be used responsibly. I don't think that the dangers are overstated, and addiction can be very powerful, but at the same time it ultimately comes down to the person. Some people are more susceptible to addiction than others, and it's important to be on the lookout for the warning signs.

And of course I agree fully on health care. The hidden costs of not having it are far higher than the upfront costs in my opinion.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

and another thing, if these people are serious about doing something about the addiction problem...how about we bring the health care system into the 21st century...where everyone has access!  novel idea!  maybe then so many people wouldnt have to self medicate.

California would have single payer if Arnold hadn't vetoed.

[Gabu]

sure, alcohol is bad for your liver.  but it seems to me that the majority of drinkers, even heavy drinkers, never experience liver problems.  certainly, *alcoholism* is bad in many ways, and i dont mean to dismiss the seriousness of that disease...but what percentage of alcohol drinkers are alcoholics?

i feel that there has been a lot of propoganda spread about booze by teetotalers and the madd crowd.

Out of curiosity, what does MADD have to do with the health effects of alcohol?  MADD's purpose is to fight against drunk driving, not against the existence of alcohol entirely.

While liver problems certainly are not experienced by most drinkers of alcohol, the fact that alcohol impairs your judgement and reflexes is well-documented and not overstated.

[© Tweed the Younger]

[WalterMitty]

sure, alcohol is bad for your liver.  but it seems to me that the majority of drinkers, even heavy drinkers, never experience liver problems.  certainly, *alcoholism* is bad in many ways, and i dont mean to dismiss the seriousness of that disease...but what percentage of alcohol drinkers are alcoholics?

i feel that there has been a lot of propoganda spread about booze by teetotalers and the madd crowd.

Out of curiosity, what does MADD have to do with the health effects of alcohol?  MADD's purpose is to fight against drunk driving, not against the existence of alcohol entirely.

While liver problems certainly are not experienced by most drinkers of alcohol, the fact that alcohol impairs your judgement and reflexes is well-documented and not overstated.

madd spreads a lot of propoganda, gabu.  no one ever says anything against them because 1. they are mothers and 2. they are against drunk driving, what could be more adorable than that?

[IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble]

In general I think the effects are overstated in some cases - particularly in the case presented to high school students and below in programs like DARE. Of course, unlike the other drugs the exaggerations don't continue when you've reached a legal age.

[Beet]

sure, alcohol is bad for your liver.  but it seems to me that the majority of drinkers, even heavy drinkers, never experience liver problems.  certainly, *alcoholism* is bad in many ways, and i dont mean to dismiss the seriousness of that disease...but what percentage of alcohol drinkers are alcoholics?

i feel that there has been a lot of propoganda spread about booze by teetotalers and the madd crowd.

madd spreads a lot of propoganda, gabu.  no one ever says anything against them because 1. they are mothers and 2. they are against drunk driving, what could be more adorable than that?

Out of curiosity, what does MADD have to do with the health effects of alcohol?  MADD's purpose is to fight against drunk driving, not against the existence of alcohol entirely.

While liver problems certainly are not experienced by most drinkers of alcohol, the fact that alcohol impairs your judgement and reflexes is well-documented and not overstated.

Actually, a lot of people have something to say against MADD, and a good number of people loathe it, often the same people who hate the religious right, too. Taking away their rights to do sh**t, and all that.

In the case of MADD, it's a familiar story. About a generation ago, the accident death rate was quite high compared to today, and the drunk driving rate was quite high. People followed poor procedures commonly such as not wearing seat belts. The legal drinking age was 18. Getting a driver's license was easy, like it was for Dazzleman's generation, and not hard, like it was for us. Kids weren't raised on stories about how this and that person was killed driving drunk or recklessly, etc. So a lot of people drove drunk and got killed. People got angry. Mothers organized around it and started MADD. MADD gained momentum and passed laws. They campaigned to change behaviors. And they succeeded. Less people got killed.

But by then MADD had become an institution. They had operations, staff, people who had built their careers around this cause. They couldn't just disband. So they continued. They changed their mission statement and purposes to become more extreme. They became abolitionist. And now, they're inciting a huge backlash even though they're a lot less influential than they used to be.

[Vasall des Midas]

Such propaganda has been spread, but most of it has been debunked so thoroughly it hasn't turned up in serious discussion over here for ages.

In India though, you'll still find lots of people who still believe that even one drop of liquor will eventually but surely lead to addiction and alcoholic death.

[angus]

how about we bring the health care system into the 21st century...where everyone has access ... maybe then so many people wouldnt have to self medicate.

ignoring the penultimate sentence of your post, which turned out, dissapointingly, to be a persuasive speech supporting Hillarycare, for the moment in order to comment on the question you propose:  yes, alcohol is physically addictive, and overpriced.  Not unlike cocaine.  And like cocaine, it ought to remain freely available to a free people capable self medicating.  You know as well as I do that drugs which alter reality will shorten your life and your memory and your cognitive abilities.  In particular, alcohol impairs sexual function, degrades the liver, and impairs motor functions.  This is not to say that any of them ought to be illegal, for personal responsibility is the hallmark of an educated populace, but let's at least be honest with ourselves.  We who choose to consume alcohol and other drugs, do so freely with full knowledge of their potential to become financial and physiological burdens.  We drink, smoke, and snort to take the edge off.  It's a rough day, sometimes, and you just need a stiff drink.  And no man has the right to tell us we shouldn't.  At least be honest with yourself, man.  That's the only hope for true freedom:  you have to at least be as honest about your frailties as you are about your hopes.

[WalterMitty]

how about we bring the health care system into the 21st century...where everyone has access ... maybe then so many people wouldnt have to self medicate.

ignoring the penultimate sentence of your post, which turned out, dissapointingly, to be a persuasive speech supporting Hillarycare, for the moment in order to comment on the question you propose:  yes, alcohol is physically addictive, and overpriced.  Not unlike cocaine.  And like cocaine, it ought to remain freely available to a free people capable self medicating.  You know as well as I do that drugs which alter reality will shorten your life and your memory and your cognitive abilities.  In particular, alcohol impairs sexual function, degrades the liver, and impairs motor functions.  This is not to say that any of them ought to be illegal, for personal responsibility is the hallmark of an educated populace, but let's at least be honest with ourselves.  We who choose to consume alcohol and other drugs, do so freely with full knowledge of their potential to become financial and physiological burdens.  We drink, smoke, and snort to take the edge off.  It's a rough day, sometimes, and you just need a stiff drink.  And no man has the right to tell us we shouldn't.  At least be honest with yourself, man.  That's the only hope for true freedom:  you have to at least be as honest about your frailties as you are about your hopes.

just curious, angus, do you think alcohol is just as dangerous as cocaine?

that is an honest question.  i dont know much about coke.  i dont have any personal experience with it.

[angus]

well, it's a bit over my head, to be honest, as I'm not an expert in human physiology.  I do think they're both physically and psychologically addictive, though the AMA recognize alcoholism as a disease, and I don't know about cocaine addiction.  You could probably look it up.

I find that coke gives me a bigger headache per gram, but not per dollar, nor per mole of substance.  So it depends on what particular extensive or intensive variables you're looking at.  As a scientist, I'm hesitant to make any broad statements which depend on normati---well, that's bullsh**t, since I rant about stuff all the time, but I would say that if you try to quantify some economic burden, based on available statistics, which correlates with a per mole quantity of cocaine and compared it to the similar measure for ethanol, you'd be looking at something akin to trying to compare apples and oranges, in the sense that, like apples and oranges, coke and alcohol are different types of drugs with different pharmacological effects that can't be as easily compared as, say, xylene and toluene as additives to octane in automotive fuel, know what I mean?  I think your question is a bit like asking, "which is better for you, apples or oranges?"  Well, they're both "good for you" in one sense.  But if you just broke your arm and are looking for it to heal, oranges have lots of L-ascorbic acid which promotes the post-translational hydroxylation of proline and lysine residues on tropocollagen, sort of a molecular rebar on which calcium deposits in the formation of bone mass.  If you're having a peptic ulcer, on the other hand, oranges might be better avoided.

That said, I have no problem with problem drinkers, so long as they're not trying to give me a hard time.  My attitude about drinking has always been summed up in that old adage "I drink; I fall down; no problem."  I'd pretty much say the same thing about coke, weed, xanax, and everything else.  So long as you're not robbing me to pay for it, or trying to pilot the plane I'm on or be my surgeon while you're high, then it's really not my problem.  Nor is my problem yours.  Unless we start socialized medicine, that is.  Then all my problems are yours, and vice versa.  Hopefully Americans won't go there.

[opebo]

Alcohol is harmless.. it just appears so to the deluded.  In fact its 'abuse' is a symptom of oppression.

[Snowguy716]

The effects of alcohol on the body are simply mind boggling!  That's why I drink it. 

Of course responsible consumption of alcohol is key.  I think the definition of binge drinking is absolutely ridiculous, especially when all alcohol education stresses that alcohol has different effects on different people.  (A 90 pound 20 year old female will have a different experience of 5 beers in an hour than a 300 pound foot ball player male).

That said, if you can't remember the night before or you're getting sick and throwing up, you've had way too much.

As for MADD:  Whatever.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

Here's how I'd reform laws relating to intoxicants.

1 Legalize Marijuana, make shrooms/X/LSD be decriminalized(as in only fines for using or selling but not much focus on it) and crack down SEVERELY on hard drugs.
2 Instead of warning people that using at all is bad, the (lessened amount broadcast) Public Service announcements would instead stress moderation of use, getting help if you're addicted and not using them underage.
3 Abolish the concept of drunk driving and treak drunk crashes the same as regular crashes. Basically no more breathalyzers. Actions have consequences and people will have to live with their own idiocy. A few generations of this and people will get the hint and stop doing it as much.
4 Make doing crimes high/drunk simply be another charge tacked on with more time added. Also depending on what they're using(either pot, booze, "decriminalized" drugs or hard drugs) apply a secondary charge. People who do crimes while on "decriminalized" drugs would see a third additional charge tacked on. Lastly for people who do the hard drugs I'd crack down on I'd apply the first 4 extra charges and a special charge for doing crimes under the influence of hard drugs. I can live with massively full prisons and largescale use of capitol punishment.
5 Abolish all public intoxication/public smoking laws/ordinances. However as in proposal 5 increase sentencing for anyone caught doing a crime high/drunk. Relax rules on police "brutality" with regards to crimes done high/drunk.
6 allow grocery stores to sell booze and make liquor/smokes/marijuana available in vending machines
7 Make the age for buying booze/smokes/ganja be 18 with there being no downwards age for drinking in private(drinking in public would be legal at 18). This is to remove the idiotic emphasis on constantly carding people, the wasted police effort patrolling neighborhoods looking for parties and endless busts for underage drinking.
8 Lower the high excise taxes on marijuana, alcohol and tobacco. However as part of it make Tobacco be under FDA regulations to make sure that the tobacco companies are made to stop putting in things like extra tar/more additives.
9 Re-allow alcohol and tobacco advertisement on TV/Radio. Also allow advertisement for marijuana. Also don't mandate putting on the surgeon general's warning. People make stupid choices and they should have to live with it.
10 Apply california type 3 strikes rules for sentencing plus mandatory minimum sentencing on a national basis. Also make the extra charges relating to doing crimes on the influence count for 3 strikes laws. I am not a nice person.
11 Do a grand bargain with mexico to settle the immigration, environmental, border crime and drug smuggling issues. Basically bring in US Capital and promote industrialization of mexico(by taking the US out of the washington consensus model of free trade and doing severe restrictions on non-mexican second/third world immigration). This may seem unrelated to the rest of my proposal but it creates a mexican government willing to help the US government enforce anti-smuggling of heroin/coke in mexico. Also if the DEA is able to intercept the coke in chiapas MUCH less makes it into the US.

Unfortunately we'll probably to wait 20-30 years when the political consequences of protestantism's shrinking proportion on the population/demographic changes actually has an effect and the boomers are gone to see serious reform on this front.

[adam]

Given the social protectionist society we live, it's not unbelievable that the harmful effects of alcohol, along with most other intoxicating products, has been overstated.

The best way to treat alcoholism is through voluntary rehabilitation programs. Let's face facts folks. Neither I or anyone I have ever had contact with had ever stopped smoking (pot and cigarettes both) because we saw a spooky black and white commercial while watching Judge Hatchet at 10am on a Tuesday. The same is true for alcoholics...they don't need to be berated over the airwaves, they need professional help. Until we make this professional help more accessable, alcoholism is always going to be a problem. Alcoholics, like smokers, are not threats to society. They are not evil people. They are people that need real help, many of which would get this help if they could.

You can't blame an object for the problems of individuals.

[Vasall des Midas]

Actually... most people who get over a drug addiction do so without any professional help. And the success rate of professional help is utterly abysmal. (Although, of course, it's infinitely better for purely voluntary programs than for ones that aren't all that voluntary.)
So berating people over the airwaves might actually be a more effective way of reducing drug addiction than rehab programs.

[opebo]

So berating people over the airwaves might actually be a more effective way of reducing drug addiction than rehab programs.

Actually giving people other things to do would be the most effective.  So, legalizing other drugs, and most of all prostitution would greatly reduce alcoholism.  Men would have no reason to hang out in bars if they could simply go to a brothel, nor would they have any reason to buy women drinks.

[angus]

So I did two days in a row (sunday and monday) without alcohol or animal products.  No eggs, cheese, butter, shrimp, lamb, pork, etc., and also no booze.  Figured I'd give my cardiovascular system a break.  I noticed two things:  I didn't feel more peppy like I thought I would, although I didn't feel particularly tired or stressed either; I had no urge to post here like I usually do, and consequently I went about three days without posting here.  Instead, I played with my son and read books and stuff like that.  Being sober and all.  Once I went back to nightly binge drinking I went back to posting here.  But I have to admit that the urge to post also coincided with going back to eating animal products, so it's not clear that getting good and drunk is what makes me angry, politically aware, and interested in giving my opinion to, and seeking the approval of, strangers.  Maybe there are too many variables.  Next time I'll do separate meat-free day and alcohol-free day experiments.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

sure, alcohol is bad for your liver.  but it seems to me that the majority of drinkers, even heavy drinkers, never experience liver problems.  certainly, *alcoholism* is bad in many ways, and i dont mean to dismiss the seriousness of that disease...but what percentage of alcohol drinkers are alcoholics?

i feel that there has been a lot of propoganda spread about booze by teetotalers and the madd crowd.

Out of curiosity, what does MADD have to do with the health effects of alcohol?  MADD's purpose is to fight against drunk driving, not against the existence of alcohol entirely.

While liver problems certainly are not experienced by most drinkers of alcohol, the fact that alcohol impairs your judgement and reflexes is well-documented and not overstated.

madd spreads a lot of propoganda, gabu.  no one ever says anything against them because 1. they are mothers and 2. they are against drunk driving, what could be more adorable than that?

speaking of MADD...

sitting in jail in the early morning hours of July 4th 1984, I overheard someone arrested for drunk driving claiming they were going to join DAMM - Drunks Against Mad Mothers

[MaC]

people treat too much drinking as a "dis-ease".  There's certainly more emphasis put on that here, than in other countries where more people are available to drink alcohol and realize it's a personal responsibilty as to where to draw the line.

[WalterMitty]

So I did two days in a row (sunday and monday) without alcohol or animal products.  No eggs, cheese, butter, shrimp, lamb, pork, etc., and also no booze.  Figured I'd give my cardiovascular system a break.  I noticed two things:  I didn't feel more peppy like I thought I would, although I didn't feel particularly tired or stressed either; I had no urge to post here like I usually do, and consequently I went about three days without posting here.  Instead, I played with my son and read books and stuff like that.  Being sober and all.  Once I went back to nightly binge drinking I went back to posting here.  But I have to admit that the urge to post also coincided with going back to eating animal products, so it's not clear that getting good and drunk is what makes me angry, politically aware, and interested in giving my opinion to, and seeking the approval of, strangers.  Maybe there are too many variables.  Next time I'll do separate meat-free day and alcohol-free day experiments.

everynow and then i do 10 days free of alcohol...to 'clear out the toxins'.  havent noticed any difference.

i know the perception on this board is that i drink a lot.  honestly, most weeks i drink 2 nights a week...never more than 3.  granted on those designated drinking nights, i can guzzle down my share of booze.

[angus]

everynow and then i do 10 days free of alcohol...to 'clear out the toxins'.

then, by your own admission, the question was rather rhetorical.  Glad to hear you are only a two-night-a-week drunk.  I'm more of a seven-night-a-week drunk most of the time, but I've resolved to have at least one alcohol-free day per week.  I'm also watching the sodium and cholesterol.  Will be 40 later this year.  Gotta start thinking about my ticker.

the fact is, all alcohols are intoxicating.  methanol, ethanol, butanol, etc., are compounds which will, over time, do great damage to your liver.  True, the even chain alcohols such as ethanol, butanol, and hexanol are less toxic than the odd chain ones.  In fact, the ingestion of just a little methanol can cause blindness.  I think that, during its journey from its humble single-celled beginnings, our species simply has not evolved the enzymes to use the alcohols .  At least not in this version of the universe. 

That said, somebody must have stumbled upon over-ripe fruit long ago and enjoyed the buzz that it created.  That person may even have had "visions" and become a great shaman to the people, sharing the rotten fruit with the sick and dying as a gift from the gods.  And, as I understand it, the Mesopotamia people have been systematically producing fermeted grain beverages for over five thousand years.  Maybe in the West (Europe, Africa, and the near east), after many millenia of consuming tej, beer, wine, and other spirits, most folks do have the seven liver enzymes required for glycolysis, in order to metabolize ethanol.  Similarly, the Native Peoples of the Americas have been fermenting sotol, for thousands of years, into something that packs a whallop as strong as tequila.  In the East, most folks are missing one of the seven.  Aldehyde dehydrogenase is the missing enzyme, so many chinese and japanese get really red-skinned even after a few sips of hard liquor.  I think something like fifty percent of mongoloid peoples are missing this one.  I'm sure your liver has all seven required to metabolize ethanol.  Still, its metabolism is hard on your liver.  And on your wallet.  And, if you have the disease alcoholism, on your significant others.  And yes, regardless of the misconceptions expressed in this thread, alcoholism is a disease, and is recognized as such by medical organizations worldwide, including the AMA.  Make sure you understand that an alcoholic is an alcoholic from birth, and an alcoholic is an alcoholic whether or not he ever consumes even a drop of alcohol.  Although, admittedly, if he never drinks, he never realizes he's an alcoholic.

I think you and I are drunks, Walter, and not alcoholics.  There is a huge difference.  But we also seem, respectively, to show some of the signs of alcoholism.  Becoming irritable or unreasonable at times, without knowing why, is a trait I have long exhibited.  You seem more to be given to bouts of depression.  Still, there are other reasons for anger and for depression, so we can't blame those personality traits on any particular malady without rigorous study.  My therapist says I'm basically a well-adjusted person, but very impatient, especially when folks misinterpret or misunderstand me.  She never was really clear about why, though.  I find psychoanalysis to be useless, since I never get told anything I didn't already know.  I stopped seeing her about three years ago.  Maybe I should find a god and pray or meditate or whatever people do to commune with their gods.  I'm still convinced that religion helps people.  I just don't have the patience for that.  Actually, I find playing with my son and reading to him to be the best therapy.  Maybe you're finding that as well.  Unfortunately, proper child nurturing requires me to maintain some sobriety till even late in the night.  I'm no good at stopping at one or two or three drinks, so on the nights I've determined to have a life, I simply forego opening the bottle in the first place.  You, on the other hand, may be one of those sorts of persons who can be a lively and fun drunk, and can play with your child in a productive way even when stoned out of his mind.  Time will tell.

[Platypus]

Well, my dad's an alcoholic. Probably always has been, but over the last few months it's come into fruition so to speak. Thing is, I can only blame him, at least for the moment.

Wow, that's personal. Angus seems to have tht effect on me; he's sort of like a best friend who you see every few months and just unload to. I have one of them in real life and geez it's useful, although more recently she's been unloading on me. Anyway, enough trying to diverge from the topic :p

[angus]

Well, my dad's an alcoholic. Probably always has been, but over the last few months it's come into fruition so to speak. Thing is, I can only blame him, at least for the moment.

That's alright old boy.  I think the occassional intensely personal posting can be good therapy.  But I have no psychoanalytical training, so don't sue me. 

I'm a big fan of free group therapy, and have attended NA meetings, AA meetings, and even post on this forum.  Admittedly, I don't think I'm an addict of any of these things, but most meetings are open and the folks there tend to be very accepting.  You might try Al-Anon if you're really interested in talking to others who may have similar experiences.  There are all sorts of al-anon meetings, and all sorts of AA meetings.  Some are smoking-only, some are for non-smokers, some are for gay & lesbian folks.  Some are folks with children.  Some are for singles.  Some are for Jews.  Some are for heavy coke users.  Some are in the day.  Some are in the night.  Some are for general audiences.  All have one thing in common:  they all live with an alcoholic.  Or think they do.

http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/meetings/australia.html