300 years of union

[afleitch]

Today marks 300 years since the signing of the Act of Union between Scotland and England. So begins a series of national debates and a 'roadshow' organised by The Scotsman newspaper in the run up to the May elections as Gordon Brown prepares to head north and arguing in favour of saving his job the Union with David Cameron expected to do likewise.

And me? I hold out hope for every option, but after a barrage of quite offensive rhetoric from Reid/Brown reminiscent of the 'no' campaign in '97 (and would have greatly upset Dewar) a very loose union with full fiscal independence and further devolution of power is probably the only case I could have for maintaining the Union at present.

[Democratic Hawk]

I'm a staunch Unionist because I feel the whole (i.e. the United Kingdom) is greater than any of its constituent parts (i.e. England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales)

Furthermore, I never refer to myself as English, only British

Dave

[J. J.]

"Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush."

Sorry, couldn't resist. 

[Gabu]

I'm a staunch Unionist because I feel the whole (i.e. the United Kingdom) is greater than any of its constituent parts (i.e. England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales)

Furthermore, I never refer to myself as English, only British

Dave

Here's a random question: As I understand it, "British" refers to someone residing in Great Britain.  Is there any term for someone residing in all of the UK, or can you use "British" for that as well?

I ask because I've always wondered what you call someone from the UK.  "United Kingdoman"?

[KEmperor]

I'm a staunch Unionist because I feel the whole (i.e. the United Kingdom) is greater than any of its constituent parts (i.e. England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales)

Furthermore, I never refer to myself as English, only British

Dave

Here's a random question: As I understand it, "British" refers to someone residing in Great Britain.  Is there any term for someone residing in all of the UK, or can you use "British" for that as well?

I ask because I've always wondered what you call someone from the UK.  "United Kingdoman"?

Well, I suppose you could encompass the Irish in the term British in a loose sense.  The two are called the British Isles.

[afleitch]

"Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush."

Sorry, couldn't resist. 

'Those days are past now
And in the past they must remain
But we can still rise now
And be the nation again'



Seriously the infamous verse in God Save the Queen related to Jacobites and contemporary politics not to Scots in general; though it isn't really sung anymore.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The Newsnight poll of this is worth a look through: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/16_01_07_union.pdf

In the long run, I suspect we'll see greater devolution away from Whitehall, both to Holyrood and Cardiff, but also to some form of devolved government/governments in England (although quite what form that would take is hard to tell).

[Democratic Hawk]

I'm a staunch Unionist because I feel the whole (i.e. the United Kingdom) is greater than any of its constituent parts (i.e. England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales)

Furthermore, I never refer to myself as English, only British

Dave

Here's a random question: As I understand it, "British" refers to someone residing in Great Britain.  Is there any term for someone residing in all of the UK, or can you use "British" for that as well?

Not that I know of. I know in Northern Ireland, most unionists define themselves as "British"; while nationalists consider themselves "Irish"

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well, that along with such other possibilities as "United Kingdomlander" don't quite roll off the tongue as easily as "British"

Dave

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Here's a random question: As I understand it, "British" refers to someone residing in Great Britain.  Is there any term for someone residing in all of the UK, or can you use "British" for that as well?

Yes you can, and 'tis normal to do so. After all, the word Britain refers to the entire collection of rainy islands north of France, not just the biggest one

[Gabu]

I'm a staunch Unionist because I feel the whole (i.e. the United Kingdom) is greater than any of its constituent parts (i.e. England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales)

Furthermore, I never refer to myself as English, only British

Dave

Here's a random question: As I understand it, "British" refers to someone residing in Great Britain.  Is there any term for someone residing in all of the UK, or can you use "British" for that as well?

Not that I know of. I know in Northern Ireland, most unionists define themselves as "British"; while nationalists consider themselves "Irish"

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well, that along with such other possibilities as "United Kingdomlander" don't quite roll off the tongue as easily as "British"

Dave

So the answer is basically "no, there is no well-defined term for people living in all of the UK"?

Here's a random question: As I understand it, "British" refers to someone residing in Great Britain.  Is there any term for someone residing in all of the UK, or can you use "British" for that as well?

Yes you can, and 'tis normal to do so. After all, the word Britain refers to the entire collection of rainy islands north of France, not just the biggest one

Well sure, but then you're calling people from Ireland "British", and that sounds even more wrong.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Well sure, but then you're calling people from Ireland "British", and that sounds even more wrong.

Are we talking about the island of Ireland here or just the Republic?

[Gabu]

Well sure, but then you're calling people from Ireland "British", and that sounds even more wrong.

Are we talking about the island of Ireland here or just the Republic?

The Republic; given that the people from Northern Ireland are at least officially attached to Great Britain, it doesn't sound quite as weird to call them "British".

I'm aware that the British Isles includes all of the islands up there, but it still doesn't really sound right to call them "British".

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I'm aware that the British Isles includes all of the islands up there, but it still doesn't really sound right to call them "British".

True, but that's because the word has come to mean something else.

[Јas]

The Republic; given that the people from Northern Ireland are at least officially attached to Great Britain, it doesn't sound quite as weird to call them "British".

I'm aware that the British Isles includes all of the islands up there, but it still doesn't really sound right to call them "British".

Not only does it not sound right, it isn't right. At least, no more so than to refer to you as an American based on the fact that you're from the Americas, for example.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

The Republic; given that the people from Northern Ireland are at least officially attached to Great Britain, it doesn't sound quite as weird to call them "British".

I'm aware that the British Isles includes all of the islands up there, but it still doesn't really sound right to call them "British".

Not only does it not sound right, it isn't right. At least, no more so than to refer to you as an American based on the fact that you're from the Americas, for example.

Well he ought to be an American. 54°40' or fight!

[Hatman 🍁]

The Republic; given that the people from Northern Ireland are at least officially attached to Great Britain, it doesn't sound quite as weird to call them "British".

I'm aware that the British Isles includes all of the islands up there, but it still doesn't really sound right to call them "British".

Not only does it not sound right, it isn't right. At least, no more so than to refer to you as an American based on the fact that you're from the Americas, for example.

Gabu is an American though. As am I. We are from the American continent.

[bullmoose88]

Is the UK going to become, gasp...a federal system?

[The Man From G.O.P.]

May it last 300 more years, the nationalists can go to hell, be proud to be British, be proud to be the last real people on the continent, the english aren't enslaving anyone anymore, a split based on ancient animosity will only ruin the success that post war Britain can become.

[bullmoose88]

May it last 300 more years, the nationalists can go to hell, be proud to be British, be proud to be the last real people on the continent, the english aren't enslaving anyone anymore, a split based on ancient animosity will only ruin the success that post war Britain can become.

My God, you make it sound like Britain is a failure or such...the only area where I think American culture is superior is in cuisine...and that seems to be changing.

(Dentistry too :-p)

[The Man From G.O.P.]

May it last 300 more years, the nationalists can go to hell, be proud to be British, be proud to be the last real people on the continent, the english aren't enslaving anyone anymore, a split based on ancient animosity will only ruin the success that post war Britain can become.

My God, you make it sound like Britain is a failure or such...the only area where I think American culture is superior is in cuisine...and that seems to be changing.

(Dentistry too :-p)

She's not a failure in the least, it would just be an absolute disgrace for my children to look on the map when they are young and see three countries instead of one, I'm proud to be Welsh, sure the English are pale little cowards and the Scots are bucktoothed hicks, (they're quick to remind us Welsh of our.... thing for sheep) but it's one country, one union, something to be supremely proud of, people these days just have no pride, no pride at all.

[minionofmidas]

The "British Isles"? I thought they were called the North West European Archipelago by now. No seriously... Irish Nationalists apparently used that term for a while.
And the "original" meaning of British is, of course, basically synonymous with the modern term "Welsh".
Since the inhabitant of a "kingdom" is a "subject", someone from the UK could be termed a United Subject, don't you think?

Okay. Seriously. There are lots of people in England whose "nation" is definitely Great Britain (or the UK... but I think Great Britain's more accurate.), not England. Especially if their ancestors came from the continent less than 300 years ago. But Scots do tend to think of Scotland as their nation, even those that're opposed to full independence.
One of my pet theories. Great Britain is a nation, Scotland is a nation. Nations seldom occupy plots of land exclusively from other nations. Which is why nationalism is a wrong and misguided concept at core.
As I said, pet theory.

[afleitch]

National identity is often constructed, and can go through periods of growth or repression. 'Modern' Scottish identity is somewhat more inclusive, perhaps even more 'non threatening' than English or British national identity- polls show that ethnic and religious minorities feel a closer attachment to a Scottish identity (as their main, or partial identity) than they do to that of Britain. In celebrating the arts there is less of an intentional (or guilt induced) seperation of Scottish and minority culture in that identity. It's the little things, tartan at a Sikh wedding, support for the national team in sports that is successful. Flag waving jingoe is pointless, as the celebration of national identity is a celebration of being Scottish and not necessarily Scotland and belonging to the land or the institutions of the land etc. This isn't modern either, it's a vein that runs through centuries.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

'Modern' Scottish identity is somewhat more inclusive, perhaps even more 'non threatening' than English or British national identity- polls show that ethnic and religious minorities feel a closer attachment to a Scottish identity (as their main, or partial identity) than they do to that of Britain.

...to people and minorites in Scotland. Which is part of the problem with nationalism o/c; it always looks different, very different, from the outside.

[afleitch]

'Modern' Scottish identity is somewhat more inclusive, perhaps even more 'non threatening' than English or British national identity- polls show that ethnic and religious minorities feel a closer attachment to a Scottish identity (as their main, or partial identity) than they do to that of Britain.

...to people and minorites in Scotland. Which is part of the problem with nationalism o/c; it always looks different, very different, from the outside.

Which can work to ones advantage if you want to portray Scotland and England hating each others guts- which is as far from the case as possible. To be fair a better example of a modern constructed national identity would be Wales was is still evolving. By constructed I dont mean thats it's false, just that it's forged by modern culture and institutions and events, even things such as a relitively recent flag and adoption of capital city.

[The Man From G.O.P.]

'Modern' Scottish identity is somewhat more inclusive, perhaps even more 'non threatening' than English or British national identity- polls show that ethnic and religious minorities feel a closer attachment to a Scottish identity (as their main, or partial identity) than they do to that of Britain.

...to people and minorites in Scotland. Which is part of the problem with nationalism o/c; it always looks different, very different, from the outside.

Which can work to ones advantage if you want to portray Scotland and England hating each others guts- which is as far from the case as possible. To be fair a better example of a modern constructed national identity would be Wales was is still evolving. By constructed I dont mean thats it's false, just that it's forged by modern culture and institutions and events, even things such as a relitively recent flag and adoption of capital city.

Certainly weren't English before Cardiff became the capital.