Italian election maps?

[NYGOP]

Chirac is a conservative

No he isn't. He is what passes for conservative in France. He is probably to the left of Kucinich.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Chirac is a conservative

No he isn't. He is what passes for conservative in France. He is probably to the left of Kucinich.

France isn't exactly a left wing country. Le Pen got into the second round of the Presidential Election...
It is very, very polarised.

[Keystone Phil]

Chirac is a conservative

No he isn't. He is what passes for conservative in France. He is probably to the left of Kucinich.

France isn't exactly a left wing country. Le Pen got into the second round of the Presidential Election...
It is very, very polarised.

I remember hearing about Le Pen winning 2nd place. That was kind of...shocking.

[NYGOP]

Chirac is a conservative

No he isn't. He is what passes for conservative in France. He is probably to the left of Kucinich.

France isn't exactly a left wing country. Le Pen got into the second round of the Presidential Election...
It is very, very polarised.

It's more left wing than any other nation in Europe except  Sweden or Holland. And I'm sure we can agree that Europe is the most left wing continent. Le Pen only recieved 17% of the vote.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Chirac is a conservative

No he isn't. He is what passes for conservative in France. He is probably to the left of Kucinich.

France isn't exactly a left wing country. Le Pen got into the second round of the Presidential Election...
It is very, very polarised.

It's more left wing than any other nation in Europe except  Sweden or Holland. And I'm sure we can agree that Europe is the most left wing continent. Le Pen only recieved 17% of the vote.

The man is an out and out FASCIST!!!! What do you mean ONLY 17%

[NYGOP]

Chirac is a conservative

No he isn't. He is what passes for conservative in France. He is probably to the left of Kucinich.

France isn't exactly a left wing country. Le Pen got into the second round of the Presidential Election...
It is very, very polarised.

It's more left wing than any other nation in Europe except  Sweden or Holland. And I'm sure we can agree that Europe is the most left wing continent. Le Pen only recieved 17% of the vote.

The man is an out and out FASCIST!!!! What do you mean ONLY 17%

He only received 17% of the vote! That isn't much, sorry. And he isn't that right wing when compared to the GOP. He isn't any more conservative than Santorum or Lott. Please name me a country in europe more liberal than France, other than Sweden or Holland.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Chirac is a conservative

No he isn't. He is what passes for conservative in France. He is probably to the left of Kucinich.

France isn't exactly a left wing country. Le Pen got into the second round of the Presidential Election...
It is very, very polarised.

It's more left wing than any other nation in Europe except  Sweden or Holland. And I'm sure we can agree that Europe is the most left wing continent. Le Pen only recieved 17% of the vote.

The man is an out and out FASCIST!!!! What do you mean ONLY 17%

He only received 17% of the vote! That isn't much, sorry. And he isn't that right wing when compared to the GOP. He isn't any more conservative than Santorum or Lott. Please name me a country in europe more liberal than France, other than Sweden or Holland.

First off, although much of the Paris area is rather left wing (esp. St Denis, a run down sh*thole a few miles east of Paris proper) Paris is not France.

These are the results of round one:

Bruno Megret                 MNR                667,026  02.3
Corinne Lepage               Cap-21             535,837  01.9
Daniel Gluckstein            PT                 132,686  00.5
François Bayrou              UDF              1,949,170  06.8
Jacques Chirac               RPR              5,665,855  19.9
Jean-Marie Le Pen            FN               4,804,713  16.9
Christine Taubira            PRG                660,447  02.3
Jean Saint-Josse             CPNT             1,204,689  04.2
Noël Mamere                  Verts            1,495,724  05.2
Lionel Jospin                PS               4,610,113  16.2
Christine Boutin                                339,112  01.2
Robert Hue                   PCF                960,480  03.4
Jean-Pierre Chevenement      PR               1,518,528  05.3
Alain Madelin                DL               1,113,484  03.9
Arlette Laguiller            LO               1,630,045  05.7
Olivier Besancenot           LCR              1,210,562  04.2

And Le Pen is way to the right of even the most extreme Republicans like Lott (has Lott ever proposed deporting/making virtual slaves of ethnic minorities?).
And have any Lott supporters sprayed Swastikas on Jewish graves?

I realise that in the deluded view of the world held by many Republicans, France is some wimpy-arty-lefty place where everyone is gay/likes gays.
That picture is wrong. Very, very wrong.

[Gustaf]

Berlusconi wasn't convicted b/c he changed the law after being elected making himself immune to the crimes he was charged with...

He also took a show that made fun of him off the air...how's that for democracy? He controls something like 90% of Italian tv. He coalition partners are Mussolini's old fascist party and the quite openly racist Lega Nord...it's beyond me how anyone could cheer on someone like Berlusconi, who ignores his political duties to watch football and tries to discuss chicks with EU-leaders rather than political issues. And let's not even get started on labeling a German parliamentarian as a WWII camp guard, including a member of the Nazi death squads from WWII in his cabinet and chumming with Putin, back-stabbing not only Russian democracy but also the EU foreign policy which he was at the time responsible for.

He'd be a joke if the situation wasn't so tragic.

[opebo]

I find Burlesconi amusing, and his 'crimes' - bribing corrupt officials - are inevitable and necessary for a businessman operating in a over-regulated socialist society.

[Gustaf]

I find Burlesconi amusing, and his 'crimes' - bribing corrupt officials - are inevitable and necessary for a businessman operating in a over-regulated socialist society.

Do you find him burlesc?

[Jens]

I find Burlesconi amusing, and his 'crimes' - bribing corrupt officials - are inevitable and necessary for a businessman operating in a over-regulated socialist society.

So much for democracy. I wouldn't call Italy an overregulated society nor socialist. After all the christian democrats had the power from 1945 to 1990 when they collapsed because of corruption charges (and they where quite guilty - a former PM hid himself in Tunesia to awoid prosecution)
Berlusconi didn't only bribe officials. He has also created laws that insured that he controlled most of the media - so much for a honest businessman!!

[Gustaf]

I find Burlesconi amusing, and his 'crimes' - bribing corrupt officials - are inevitable and necessary for a businessman operating in a over-regulated socialist society.

So much for democracy. I wouldn't call Italy an overregulated society nor socialist. After all the christian democrats had the power from 1945 to 1990 when they collapsed because of corruption charges (and they where quite guilty - a former PM hid himself in Tunesia to awoid prosecution)
Berlusconi didn't only bribe officials. He has also created laws that insured that he controlled most of the media - so much for a honest businessman!!

Opebo isn't in favour of democracy though...

[Jens]

I find Burlesconi amusing, and his 'crimes' - bribing corrupt officials - are inevitable and necessary for a businessman operating in a over-regulated socialist society.

So much for democracy. I wouldn't call Italy an overregulated society nor socialist. After all the christian democrats had the power from 1945 to 1990 when they collapsed because of corruption charges (and they where quite guilty - a former PM hid himself in Tunesia to awoid prosecution)
Berlusconi didn't only bribe officials. He has also created laws that insured that he controlled most of the media - so much for a honest businessman!!

Opebo isn't in favour of democracy though...

A pitty for him . Democracy is fun

[English]

France isn't left wing, what on earth are you talking about? It regularly gives the far right 15% of the vote, has a bossy arrogant foreign policy, conducts nuclear weapons tests in the face of international condemnation, it has lower taxation that most other European nations and is reputedly the most racist nation in Europe. I wouldn't call that very left wing would you? It even had compulsory military service up until recently.
It's not as left wing as Britain in my opinion.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

France isn't left wing, what on earth are you talking about? It regularly gives the far right 15% of the vote, has a bossy arrogant foreign policy, conducts nuclear weapons tests in the face of international condemnation, it has lower taxation that most other European nations and is reputedly the most racist nation in Europe. I wouldn't call that very left wing would you? It even had compulsory military service up until recently.
It's not as left wing as Britain in my opinion.

In many ways it's not even as left wing as the U.S... one of the most admirable features of American politics is the fact that it is impossible to be an elitist snobbish bastard and get elected to high office. (as in Bush and Kerry's efforts to out-macho each other).
Hell even Bush the First would be thought of as "populist" in France...
Which ... really, really needs some of that populist energy that American politics is full of (even Le Pen is an establishment figure who lives in Paris's western suburbs. As does just about every other politician and political pundit).
In many ways France is deeply conservative... take secularism for example. In France a Santorum like bigot is likely to be an avowed secularist.
Note that the only parties opposed to the banning of headscarves were the Greens and the Communists.

[AuH2O]

Europe is definitely more "left-wing" economically, but socially it's not.

Firstly, Americans are much more 'loose' morally. Americans have sex MUCH more and at much younger ages than Europeans do... outside of select cities, wild partying is much more common in the US than Europe. That's why it's ironic that porn is taboo in the US, but predictable: there is a huge gap between religious people and secular people. Each side gets its way some of the time.

At any rate, it's hard to compare how far "right," say, Le Pen is vs. Jeff Sessions or Pat Roberts or someone like that. Because Le Pen's views on immigration mirror David Duke's, while his criminal justice positions are very mainstream by US standards, as is his pro-military stance. Economic issues have not been as big a part of his message, but he is not particularly conservative in that area.

Bossi is legimately far-right, though Haider isn't really (his troubles stem from a few random comments, not really extreme political acts). Generally speaking, Europeans are much more xenophobic than Americans are... but all these things require perspective. Comparisons are rarely useful as a result.

It's not so much that French people are wusses, they just despise the US. So when they opposed the war in Iraq, it had nothing to do with war being "wrong," it was simply not in their interests.

[YoMartin]

It seems Berlusconi´s coalition is falling apart. No surprise. A nationalist party (Alleanza Nazionale) with a separatist party (Lega Nord); a free marketer (Berlusconi) with traditional Christian Democrats (UDC). That can´t last much, unless you do absolutely nothing -and he desperately needs to do something cause the economy is in bad situation. And, as more and more people oppose government, the minor parties have very good reasons to leave government and save their asses. The last news is that Berlusconi made some concessiones to save the coalition, but I see a near end.

[English]

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that. Undoubtedly all of Europe is more left-wing economically (UK, Spain & Italy less so), however socially you cannot group all of Europe together as all the nations are different.
Poland is socially very conservative (think a catholic version of the deep south), Austria is also quite conservative. Holland, Belgium, Denmark & Iceland are very liberal (although rural bits in these nations can be quite conservative). In general however I would say the main difference is that Europeans tend to believe what you do in your private life is your own affair. Things like sexuality and abortion etc. tend to be viewed as OK, so long as people keep it to themselves. For example hate crimes against gays and attacks on doctors carrying out abortions are probably much rarer in all European countries than in America.
Regarding xenophobia and racism, I must say I agree with you. All European nations have far-right racist/xenophobic parties and many are quite powerful.
There's the Vlaams Blok in Belgium, List Pim Fortuyn in Holland,  The British National Party in the UK, The Front Nationale in France, The Lega Nord in Italy. As far as I know the US possesses no such extremist parties.
Despite wackos in America, I would say overall people in Europe are more racist.

Europe is definitely more "left-wing" economically, but socially it's not.

Firstly, Americans are much more 'loose' morally. Americans have sex MUCH more and at much younger ages than Europeans do... outside of select cities, wild partying is much more common in the US than Europe. That's why it's ironic that porn is taboo in the US, but predictable: there is a huge gap between religious people and secular people. Each side gets its way some of the time.

At any rate, it's hard to compare how far "right," say, Le Pen is vs. Jeff Sessions or Pat Roberts or someone like that. Because Le Pen's views on immigration mirror David Duke's, while his criminal justice positions are very mainstream by US standards, as is his pro-military stance. Economic issues have not been as big a part of his message, but he is not particularly conservative in that area.

Bossi is legimately far-right, though Haider isn't really (his troubles stem from a few random comments, not really extreme political acts). Generally speaking, Europeans are much more xenophobic than Americans are... but all these things require perspective. Comparisons are rarely useful as a result.

It's not so much that French people are wusses, they just despise the US. So when they opposed the war in Iraq, it had nothing to do with war being "wrong," it was simply not in their interests.

[TommyC1776]

This is from the 2001 election. House of Freedoms is right-wing and Olive Tree is left-wing. I'm not sure what the Valle d'Aosta List is. I know in Valle d’Aosta they speak French, so it might be some sort of French nationalist party.

Siete un Italiano?

Is this their house map or president/prime minister (or whatever the call the leader) map?

[minionofmidas]

This is a map of which camp received the most votes in parliamentary elections. Parliament elects the PM. Note that the map is based on regions even though (smaller) constituencies exist.

[English]

Anyone have a constituency map of Italy?

[cwelsch]

National Front is practically left-wing in economics, it has an anti-globalization, anti-corporate rep.  A lot of its members started out in politics in the 1960s (after Indochina and Algeria were done with) fighting a conglomerate moving into a local area.  They're against Wal-Mart-like businesses.  The same with the British National Party (which openly suggests all British people are genetically superior or something equivalent), controlled growth, anti-globalization.

And I'd agree with the xenophobia thing except to say that a) Germany has no racist/xenophobic party of any stature, b) England's two closest xenophobic parties are the UKIPs (which is not xenophobic, at least in platform) and the BNP (which is almost completely irrelevant), and c) I don't believe a few other countries have really any xenophobic parties, or not the same kind.  Like the Swedish Liberals are supposedly in that anti-immigration vein, but in actuality they are pro-immigrant on the grounds of economic expansion and simply want them all to speak Swedish.  But yeah, by and large there's a racist or xenophobic party everywhere outside England/Germany, even the Dutch have them.  


That's what strikes me about Europe, the rampant nationalism.  Flemish movements, Basque movements, the entire Balkan peninsula, the SNP/PC, the NI parties, Swedish parties in Norway, Lega Nord, good lord, goes on and on.  That's so weird, I know it makes sense and we have it in the US to some degree, but it just strikes me as odd.

Over here, we have what, maybe the Republicans used to be exclusively Yankee and the Democrats had a one-party state in the South, but beyond that it was pretty open.  There was never a party explicitly for all the ethnicities.  You voted for the same party, and for immigrants that was usually Democrat (a couple were overwhelmingly Republican, like Germans in the Midwest), but the Black Panthers never really made it in politics (or tried, really).  We do have caucuses and conventions and clubs and societies, but the parties are pretty mainstream.

All these ethnic parties give me a headache, and the xenophobic parties are just creepy.


Hey, in the EU Parliament, what's the difference between the EDD and UEN groups?  It strikes me as though EDD is the more extreme (xenophobic?) euroskeptic group.  Follow-up question: is the FN in France affiliated with the Hunting, Fishing, Nature, Traditions party that runs for EU elections from France?

[cwelsch]

Please name me a country in europe more liberal than France, other than Sweden or Holland.

Almost all of them, potentially including Franco's Spain.

Please don't say liberal.  In Europe that means something like an extremely moderate libertarian, usually with some welfare interests and some market reforms.  Most of the European liberals left for America along with a lot of the middle class and the lowest echelons of the aristocracy.  That's why virtually every American is a liberal (constitutionalism, free markets, democracy, but especially individual constitutional and civil rights), and why the worst things in America are to be un-democratic or even worse unfree.  In some European countries, especially just a few decades ago, neither of those was even half the insult it is here.  America is liberal, and the Republicans are actually a (market or classical) liberal party.  The Democrats are a left liberal party stretching into social democrat territory.

What you should say is more left or more left-wing.  And France, despite having for a long time (let's say post-WWII) a very high number of Communists for a Western European country, is not very left.  It's widely considered racist, nationalistic and as mentioned before Le Pen (who literally but briefly mentioned something about sending Jews to the gas) got into the second round in the Presidential elections.

And if you say liberal anyway, it's also got a very long history of an extremely strong state, a very centralized culture, a very top-down regime, the President and government are extremely powerful in their legislative abilities, the Presidential terms are a whopping 7 years long (with a 2-term limit) and there's nothing like the federalism we know here.  It's an extremely unitary state and has been at least since Richelieu, then Louis XIV and then the French Revolution.

And Le Pen is a fascist, don't act otherwise.  He's not some reasonable conservative.  It's true that more or less every party (Socialists, Communists, RPR-Gaullists, and Le Pen's FN) has had some major member or party effort somehow involved in anti-Semitism or racism.  In the 1980s a Socialist PM chided neo-Nazis for bombing a Jewish temple, saying that innocent people might have been hurt - even though jews were actually harmed, suggesting that Jews deserved to be hurt but they shouldn't risk non-Jewish Frenchmen.  In 1991 Chirac characterized black people and Muslims as living in public housing with many wives and tons of children, then said they were very noisy and smelly.  The Communists also at least once used anti-immigrant, racist propaganda in their pamphlets to fight back FN advances in certain neighborhoods.

Since the late 1960s, more than 60% of French surveyed say there are "too many" North Africans in France, in 1999 51% said there are too many Arabs, and a whopping FORTY PERCENT ADMITTED TO BEING RACIST. - The Economist, June 5, 1999

By the late 1990s 25 to 30 percent of the French public had voted for Le Pen's FN at least once.


The National Front has members and leaders that suggested or hinted at taking power by force, all of them are vigorously anti-immigrant into open racist territory, many are former veterans bitter about losing the empire, losing the colonies, losing Indochina and Algeria.  Le Pen is a former paratrooper who fought in both places.  What do we know about fascist parties?  Anti-semitic, anti-market, make veiled threats at democracy, racist, horribly anti-immigrant (a signature Nazi issue, the Nazis coined terms for the anti-immigrant movement) and they are often made up of former soldiers and militarists who are bitter and resentful about losing a war.  Hitler and many Nazis were WWI veterans, after all, and so were many Italian fascists.

Le Pen is just this side of out and out fascist.  And France isn't that far from him, either.

[W in 2004]

This is from the 2001 election. House of Freedoms is right-wing and Olive Tree is left-wing. I'm not sure what the Valle d'Aosta List is. I know in Valle d’Aosta they speak French, so it might be some sort of French nationalist party.

Siete un Italiano?

  Some towns that I like that are in Switzerland and Italy are Lugano, Bellinzona, Zurich, Milano, Como, Locarno, and San Bernardino.

Lugano - very, very nice Swiss city.

Hey Keystone Phil, have you been to Switzerland or Italy?  I consider them to be the two best countries after the United States.

[Keystone Phil]

This is from the 2001 election. House of Freedoms is right-wing and Olive Tree is left-wing. I'm not sure what the Valle d'Aosta List is. I know in Valle d’Aosta they speak French, so it might be some sort of French nationalist party.

Siete un Italiano?

  Some towns that I like that are in Switzerland and Italy are Lugano, Bellinzona, Zurich, Milano, Como, Locarno, and San Bernardino.

Lugano - very, very nice Swiss city.

Hey Keystone Phil, have you been to Switzerland or Italy?  I consider them to be the two best countries after the United States.

I visited both.