Italian election maps? (user search)
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  Italian election maps? (search mode)
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Author Topic: Italian election maps?  (Read 20270 times)
cwelsch
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« on: July 14, 2004, 06:26:16 AM »

Ah yes, Italy, aside from the modern city of Nazareth one of the only places in the world where Christian Communists have found their way into viable political contention.
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cwelsch
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« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2004, 05:13:11 AM »

National Front is practically left-wing in economics, it has an anti-globalization, anti-corporate rep.  A lot of its members started out in politics in the 1960s (after Indochina and Algeria were done with) fighting a conglomerate moving into a local area.  They're against Wal-Mart-like businesses.  The same with the British National Party (which openly suggests all British people are genetically superior or something equivalent), controlled growth, anti-globalization.

And I'd agree with the xenophobia thing except to say that a) Germany has no racist/xenophobic party of any stature, b) England's two closest xenophobic parties are the UKIPs (which is not xenophobic, at least in platform) and the BNP (which is almost completely irrelevant), and c) I don't believe a few other countries have really any xenophobic parties, or not the same kind.  Like the Swedish Liberals are supposedly in that anti-immigration vein, but in actuality they are pro-immigrant on the grounds of economic expansion and simply want them all to speak Swedish.  But yeah, by and large there's a racist or xenophobic party everywhere outside England/Germany, even the Dutch have them.  


That's what strikes me about Europe, the rampant nationalism.  Flemish movements, Basque movements, the entire Balkan peninsula, the SNP/PC, the NI parties, Swedish parties in Norway, Lega Nord, good lord, goes on and on.  That's so weird, I know it makes sense and we have it in the US to some degree, but it just strikes me as odd.

Over here, we have what, maybe the Republicans used to be exclusively Yankee and the Democrats had a one-party state in the South, but beyond that it was pretty open.  There was never a party explicitly for all the ethnicities.  You voted for the same party, and for immigrants that was usually Democrat (a couple were overwhelmingly Republican, like Germans in the Midwest), but the Black Panthers never really made it in politics (or tried, really).  We do have caucuses and conventions and clubs and societies, but the parties are pretty mainstream.

All these ethnic parties give me a headache, and the xenophobic parties are just creepy.


Hey, in the EU Parliament, what's the difference between the EDD and UEN groups?  It strikes me as though EDD is the more extreme (xenophobic?) euroskeptic group.  Follow-up question: is the FN in France affiliated with the Hunting, Fishing, Nature, Traditions party that runs for EU elections from France?
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cwelsch
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« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2004, 05:18:28 AM »
« Edited: July 17, 2004, 05:55:10 AM by cwelsch »

Please name me a country in europe more liberal than France, other than Sweden or Holland.

Almost all of them, potentially including Franco's Spain.

Please don't say liberal.  In Europe that means something like an extremely moderate libertarian, usually with some welfare interests and some market reforms.  Most of the European liberals left for America along with a lot of the middle class and the lowest echelons of the aristocracy.  That's why virtually every American is a liberal (constitutionalism, free markets, democracy, but especially individual constitutional and civil rights), and why the worst things in America are to be un-democratic or even worse unfree.  In some European countries, especially just a few decades ago, neither of those was even half the insult it is here.  America is liberal, and the Republicans are actually a (market or classical) liberal party.  The Democrats are a left liberal party stretching into social democrat territory.

What you should say is more left or more left-wing.  And France, despite having for a long time (let's say post-WWII) a very high number of Communists for a Western European country, is not very left.  It's widely considered racist, nationalistic and as mentioned before Le Pen (who literally but briefly mentioned something about sending Jews to the gas) got into the second round in the Presidential elections.

And if you say liberal anyway, it's also got a very long history of an extremely strong state, a very centralized culture, a very top-down regime, the President and government are extremely powerful in their legislative abilities, the Presidential terms are a whopping 7 years long (with a 2-term limit) and there's nothing like the federalism we know here.  It's an extremely unitary state and has been at least since Richelieu, then Louis XIV and then the French Revolution.

And Le Pen is a fascist, don't act otherwise.  He's not some reasonable conservative.  It's true that more or less every party (Socialists, Communists, RPR-Gaullists, and Le Pen's FN) has had some major member or party effort somehow involved in anti-Semitism or racism.  In the 1980s a Socialist PM chided neo-Nazis for bombing a Jewish temple, saying that innocent people might have been hurt - even though jews were actually harmed, suggesting that Jews deserved to be hurt but they shouldn't risk non-Jewish Frenchmen.  In 1991 Chirac characterized black people and Muslims as living in public housing with many wives and tons of children, then said they were very noisy and smelly.  The Communists also at least once used anti-immigrant, racist propaganda in their pamphlets to fight back FN advances in certain neighborhoods.

Since the late 1960s, more than 60% of French surveyed say there are "too many" North Africans in France, in 1999 51% said there are too many Arabs, and a whopping FORTY PERCENT ADMITTED TO BEING RACIST. - The Economist, June 5, 1999

By the late 1990s 25 to 30 percent of the French public had voted for Le Pen's FN at least once.


The National Front has members and leaders that suggested or hinted at taking power by force, all of them are vigorously anti-immigrant into open racist territory, many are former veterans bitter about losing the empire, losing the colonies, losing Indochina and Algeria.  Le Pen is a former paratrooper who fought in both places.  What do we know about fascist parties?  Anti-semitic, anti-market, make veiled threats at democracy, racist, horribly anti-immigrant (a signature Nazi issue, the Nazis coined terms for the anti-immigrant movement) and they are often made up of former soldiers and militarists who are bitter and resentful about losing a war.  Hitler and many Nazis were WWI veterans, after all, and so were many Italian fascists.

Le Pen is just this side of out and out fascist.  And France isn't that far from him, either.
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