Liberals unpatriotic?
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  Liberals unpatriotic?
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Author Topic: Liberals unpatriotic?  (Read 7562 times)
Beet
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« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2004, 03:22:45 PM »

Alameda county is one of the most liberal counties in the country. I live in a pretty liberal county as well, and there have been flags on 100% of the houses since last week. It's very consistent. I agree with James... one of the most important achievements of the nation state modelled on classical liberalism has been to extend basic rights through the definition of citizenship; the creation of a national community. Without that all we would have are family names, religion, or ethnicity to identify with. The nation-state idea has to be put in a larger developmental model. It can be a force for either utilitarian-style nationalism or classical liberalism. It is its use in the former sense that some modern liberals are suspcisious of it, but in the latter sense these same people are among its greatest defenders.
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MarkDel
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« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2004, 04:24:13 PM »

The nation-state idea has to be put in a larger developmental model. It can be a force for either utilitarian-style nationalism or classical liberalism. It is its use in the former sense that some modern liberals are suspcisious of it, but in the latter sense these same people are among its greatest defenders.

Beet,

The nation-state is BOTH a force for classical liberalism AND a force for the utilitarian-style nationalism that you seem to equate with fascism, but is really just an expression of faith in the value system of your country.
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raggage
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« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2004, 08:29:44 PM »

Believe it or not, but their are other ways to be patriotic then fltin the flag and pledging allegiance to it.

Come to Australia. On Australia Day.

You on't see a flag. Why? Because we don't need them to feel patriotic, and neither do the liberals of SanFran.

Get off your high horse and celebrate your nation's most important day, just asthe SanFran liberals were-with joy and patriotism-in a real and deep way, not an overt and audacious way.

Agreed. Same with my wifes home country of new zealand. You won't see a flag unless its atop a major bridge or on top of the House of Representatives.

It matters not whether you outwardly show your patriotism or not. Its a personal choise.

For me, personally. I hang both an American and a New Zealand flag outside my home, and I ordered an american flag outside my precint. I also have one in my office. I think its unfair to say that if i didn't have a flag then I'm un-patriotic. I consider that highly offensive.
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Citizen James
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« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2004, 11:13:35 PM »

http://www.uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?board=14;action=display;threadid=5527;start=15

Michael Moore doesn't love America.  Scroll down to the movie review near the bottom of the page.  Its in three parts.

So, let me get this straight - because you disagree with his politics, he must be unpatriotic (well, I suppose that sort of logic would work in one-party states like China, but here in the good ol' US of A we like to debate the issues of the day vigorously.)

And are you only making an aside, or are you trying to imply that my whole arguement is somehow flawed because I tacked on a link to someone elses essay on the same subject at the end.
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English
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« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2004, 10:56:20 AM »

Please tell me how flying a flag demonstrates patriotism? Surely working hard, contributing to society and being a generous, thoughtful person are more important than hanging a piece of cloth out of your window. In Britain you tend to find the people who drape themselves in England flags at every oportunity are usually dimwits.  
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Wakie
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« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2004, 02:14:36 PM »

Flying an American flag (made in China) is a gesture which makes one feel good but it really doesn't make you patriotic.

If you really want to be patriotic go donate blood and save the life of a fellow American.
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English
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« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2004, 02:54:20 PM »

I'm not a fan of flag waving, it's just a cynical gesture to somehow prove you're more patriotic than someone else. As Brambila has just demonstrated. It means absolutely nothing. As Wakie said, giving blood or an organ to save a fellow countryman is surely far more precious than waving a flag?
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nclib
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« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2004, 04:00:11 PM »

I once heard a remark (sorry I don't have the citation) that radicals actually love their country the most because one must deeply love their country in order to want to change it.
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MarkDel
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« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2004, 07:19:21 PM »

I once heard a remark (sorry I don't have the citation) that radicals actually love their country the most because one must deeply love their country in order to want to change it.

Yeah..or destroy it.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2004, 01:07:53 AM »

Of course waving the flag doesn't prove any persons patriotism because we don't know what they feel in their heart. But waving a flag certainly doesn't make one a dimwit. I fly my flag out of pride for the greatest nation in history.
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PBrunsel
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« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2004, 03:10:35 PM »

I fly my flag out of pride for the greatest nation in history.

As do I.
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Lunar
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« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2004, 03:34:28 PM »

I think you`d find the same hard-left liberals in SF less likely to eat turkey dinners on Thanksgiving.  SF is sort of anti-tradition in a conformist type of way, enough to make them not hang up their flags but not enough to make them hate their country.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2004, 03:47:19 PM »

I think you`d find the same hard-left liberals in SF less likely to eat turkey dinners on Thanksgiving.  SF is sort of anti-tradition in a conformist type of way, enough to make them not hang up their flags but not enough to make them hate their country.

Long time no see Lunar!
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bejkuy
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« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2004, 04:00:08 PM »

Brambila,

I was visiting a friend in San Francisco last week and I too noticed the lack of American Flags.  I saw 10 rainbow flags for every 1 American flag I saw.  My friend said that he had had 2 flags taken down in the last couple of weeks.  He felt that the city had a anti-american mood at the moment.  

San Francisco is something else.  It's interesting to me that a city that prides itself in being liberal has perhaps the greates gap between the haves and have nots.  What liberalism really does is destroy the middle class and the small businessman.  The only business that can be run profitably in this environment are the corporations. (that the liberals love to hate) Kinda sketzophrenic (sp?).  The white folks seem to be generally socially and economically far left.  The immigrants are far more socially conservative.  The only families I saw (besides tourists) were non-white families.    
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Lunar
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« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2004, 04:05:39 PM »

I think you`d find the same hard-left liberals in SF less likely to eat turkey dinners on Thanksgiving.  SF is sort of anti-tradition in a conformist type of way, enough to make them not hang up their flags but not enough to make them hate their country.

Long time no see Lunar!

Still in Germany and typing on one of these hateful German Keyboards.  11 pm here, means about 1 pm in California.  Should be back to using a keyboard with the stuff in the right place by next Saturday.
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deli996
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« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2004, 10:53:59 PM »

patriatism is dumb.  because of it the goverment can read your emails, IMs,etc.  did you know that because of "patriatism" after 9/11 we affrested hundreds of middle easterns who had nothing to do with 9/11.  were could break the 5th and 6th amendments (they just sat in jail and got laughed at by the cops), but ancroft wouldnt let the fbi,cia,etc. search for there weapon history
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StatesRights
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« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2004, 11:55:48 AM »

patriatism is dumb.  because of it the goverment can read your emails, IMs,etc.  did you know that because of "patriatism" after 9/11 we affrested hundreds of middle easterns who had nothing to do with 9/11.  were could break the 5th and 6th amendments (they just sat in jail and got laughed at by the cops), but ancroft wouldnt let the fbi,cia,etc. search for there weapon history

Very good points John Engle. lol
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Beefalow and the Consumer
Beef
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« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2004, 02:17:42 PM »

I would say that MOST liberals are NOT unpatriotic. However, there is absolutely no question that FAR MORE liberals are unpatriotic than conservatives or moderates. Also, liberals are far more likely to be disdainful of the very concept of patriotism.

If a draft-dodging Democrat President led us to overthrow a foreign dictator who was in no way an immediate security threat, requiring hundreds of servicemen's lives in order to rebuild the country, and his administration had ties to civilian corporations who were given multi-billion-dollar contracts to rebuild the country, and the Democrat-controlled Congress passed laws curbing 1st, 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendment rights, what do you think the reaction of America's conservatives would be?

Would they "patriotically" stand behind their president?

Or would Charlton Heston currently be leading them in a mass movement to overthrow the government?

I'm not saying Bush is as bad as all that.  It's just some food for thought.  It's easy to be "patriotic" when you agree with your leaders ideologically.  But true patriotism means standing up for what you think is best for our country.  In this way liberals are by no means unpatriotic.
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elcorazon
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« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2004, 02:33:34 PM »

I would say that MOST liberals are NOT unpatriotic. However, there is absolutely no question that FAR MORE liberals are unpatriotic than conservatives or moderates. Also, liberals are far more likely to be disdainful of the very concept of patriotism.

If a draft-dodging Democrat President led us to overthrow a foreign dictator who was in no way an immediate security threat, requiring hundreds of servicemen's lives in order to rebuild the country, and his administration had ties to civilian corporations who were given multi-billion-dollar contracts to rebuild the country, and the Democrat-controlled Congress passed laws curbing 1st, 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendment rights, what do you think the reaction of America's conservatives would be?

Would they "patriotically" stand behind their president?

Or would Charlton Heston currently be leading them in a mass movement to overthrow the government?

I'm not saying Bush is as bad as all that.  It's just some food for thought.  It's easy to be "patriotic" when you agree with your leaders ideologically.  But true patriotism means standing up for what you think is best for our country.  In this way liberals are by no means unpatriotic.
well put beef
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acsenray
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« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2004, 02:34:04 PM »

It all depends on what you mean by patriotism. If your idea of patriotism is akin to rooting for your favorite athletic club, then it might be important to you to show it to people by demanding displays of flags and pledges. In my opinion, this kind of patriotism shows immaturity and a tendency towards political hooliganism.

My idea of patriotism is a love not for some abstract idea of country but a specific hope for the well-being of the people and the land of my country and caring that my government act rightly and morally at home and abroad and an interest in supporting policies that will benefit all.

In my idea of patriotism, displays of flags and pledges are non sequitur -- they are simply irrelevant. Doing it or not doing it simply has nothing to do with patriotism. I do own a flag and on occasion I have displayed it, but it has nothing to do with when or why "tradition" dictates that I should.

As Johnson said -- appeal to patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. The person who won't shut up about patriotism is the guy who's trying to put one over on you.
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