Homeschooled girl in Germany taken from family

[Middle-aged Europe]

The point of this thread is not to criticize Germany. The point is to criticize excessive government intrusion into the private lives of the people, wherever it occurs. The United States also is guilty of similar intrusions into the lives of its citizens. I post those too whenever I find them.   

Then quote a more credible source please... e.g. something more "mainstream", be it from more a conservative or a more liberal POV, but at least something credible.

The way this WorldNetDaily article was written I never knew which part they had invented, which part was true and which part was exaggerated or distorted. Not to mention that their article was almost wholly based on "facts" they obtained from organizations and pressure groups advocating homeschooling, which might not be the most objective source in the first place.

So, as I said, maybe it's true or maybe it's not... if it is based on a true story I suspect that the case was exaggerated and distorted to make the whole thing look more "evil" or more outrageous.

Well, I will leave it with that now...

[Middle-aged Europe]

True in some way, but not entirely. I agree that it´s considered "normal" by the German and also, in my case, the Austrian population, that students go to public schools. But does it have to be this way ? Not necessarily in my opinion. We could still burn witches and open up KZs. That was thought to be "normal" back then by lots of people.

I wouldn't exactly say that compulsary education in public (or state-recognized private) schools is comparable to the Holocaust.

The majority is not always right.

But in this case we're talking about a 95% to 99% majority... which means that in the eyes of most politicians and parties there's no point in changing the current laws. This was my explanation why the issue of homeschooling was handled this way for the last decades and why it will be handled this way in the coming decades.

[David S]

The point of this thread is not to criticize Germany. The point is to criticize excessive government intrusion into the private lives of the people, wherever it occurs. The United States also is guilty of similar intrusions into the lives of its citizens. I post those too whenever I find them.   

Then quote a more credible source please... e.g. something more "mainstream", be it from more a conservative or a more liberal POV, but at least something credible.

OK http://www.netzwerk-bildungsfreiheit.de/html/pe_erlangen_en.html

[Colin]

The point of this thread is not to criticize Germany. The point is to criticize excessive government intrusion into the private lives of the people, wherever it occurs. The United States also is guilty of similar intrusions into the lives of its citizens. I post those too whenever I find them.   

Then quote a more credible source please... e.g. something more "mainstream", be it from more a conservative or a more liberal POV, but at least something credible.

OK http://www.netzwerk-bildungsfreiheit.de/html/pe_erlangen_en.html

I believe someone has already stated that the site you just posted is a homeschooling pressure group in German and that is one of their press releases. Seeing that it comes from a political pressure group that is trying to get homeschooling enacted then I wouldn't consider it a credible source.

[Vincent]

We will, too.

Well, what are you waiting for?

[Middle-aged Europe]

OK http://www.netzwerk-bildungsfreiheit.de/html/pe_erlangen_en.html

Yeah, you already posted that link a few days ago and I wrote a rebuttal to that too. Go to page 2 of this thread.


Also read again what I have written on this page:

Not to mention that their article was almost wholly based on "facts" they obtained from organizations and pressure groups advocating homeschooling, which might not be the most objective source in the first place.

When I'm talking about "credible mainstream sources" I have something more in mind like CNN, the Washington Post, the Washington Times, the Wallstreet Journal, the New York Times... in Germany Der Spiegel, Die Zeit, Süddeutsche Zeitung, Die Welt... not a tiny evangelical pressure group advocating homeschooling.

[minionofmidas]

We will, too.

Well, what are you waiting for?

For David S to die of fright.

[David S]

OK http://www.netzwerk-bildungsfreiheit.de/html/pe_erlangen_en.html

Yeah, you already posted that link a few days ago and I wrote a rebuttal to that too. Go to page 2 of this thread.


Also read again what I have written on this page:

Not to mention that their article was almost wholly based on "facts" they obtained from organizations and pressure groups advocating homeschooling, which might not be the most objective source in the first place.

When I'm talking about "credible mainstream sources" I have something more in mind like CNN, the Washington Post, the Washington Times

Ask and ye shall receive; Washington Times http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20070227-084730-5162r.htm

Now I've given you three sources. Short of a affidavit from God I doubt that there is much else I can give you. The next time you post something I want three independent sources too.

[David S]

We will, too.

Well, what are you waiting for?

For David S to die of fright.

I haven't attained "Immortal" status yet so I suppose you'll get your wish eventually, but I'm not planning on checking out anytime soon.

[Colin]

OK http://www.netzwerk-bildungsfreiheit.de/html/pe_erlangen_en.html

Yeah, you already posted that link a few days ago and I wrote a rebuttal to that too. Go to page 2 of this thread.


Also read again what I have written on this page:

Not to mention that their article was almost wholly based on "facts" they obtained from organizations and pressure groups advocating homeschooling, which might not be the most objective source in the first place.

When I'm talking about "credible mainstream sources" I have something more in mind like CNN, the Washington Post, the Washington Times

Ask and ye shall receive; Washington Times http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20070227-084730-5162r.htm

Now I've given you three sources. Short of a affidavit from God I doubt that there is much else I can give you. The next time you post something I want three independent sources too.

Well something that is not an editorial written by one Paul Belien, a Flemish conservative blogger, anti-abortion advocate, and supporter of Vlaams Belang, would be nice.

[Gabu]

Ask and ye shall receive; Washington Times http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20070227-084730-5162r.htm

Now I've given you three sources. Short of a affidavit from God I doubt that there is much else I can give you. The next time you post something I want three independent sources too.

I think he was looking for an actual news article, not an op-ed probably written based on what the WND article had to say.

[David S]

Well I've posted three separate sources including one from a source Lewis asked for. Now since I am a mere mortal with a finite lifespan I prefer not to spend my remaining time looking for yet more sources. However since Lewis is immortal and has an infinite lifespan possibly he can devote a small bit of that life to finding a source which refutes the articles I posted.

Gabu I see you also have not attained immortality but possibly you could spend a tiny fraction of your remaining years (maybe 10 minutes) to finding a rebuttal. 

[Smash255]

Other.  Can't judge because the story basically has no sources and seems to be badly fabricated if not all out false.

[GOP = Terrorists]

[quote author=Rock Strongo (aka Lance Uppercut)
When I'm talking about "credible mainstream sources" I have something more in mind like the Washington Times

Yeah mainstream like Pravda...

[AkSaber]

Yes I think this is fascism. I was home schooled from Jr. to HS, and glad as hell my parents put me through that.

[Middle-aged Europe]

@David S.

1) No need to be pissed or to get sarcastic.

2) We might be both from Germany, but I'm not Lewis. So, don't blame him for the content of my postings.

3) The WorldNetDaily article you posted first, obviously included some flat out lies... for example the ridiculous claim that "a false accusation of neighbors is sufficient" for the Jugendamt to take away children from their parents. In fact, as Lewis pointed out, the Jugendamt is often accused to be either unwilling or unable to act quick enough (or to act at all) in cases of child abuse etc.

4) Conclusion: It's unclear which of the claims in the WorldNetDaily article are made up and which might be true. But we at least know for sure, that at least parts of the article were made up.

5) The Netzwerk Bildungsfreiheit link you posted then is a press release from an evangelical pressure group advocating homeschooling... which might not be the most objectice source. In addition, the WorldNetDaily article seems to be heavily based on the information from this and similar groups. In fact this same Netzwerk Bildungsfreiheit press release was quoted in the WorldNetDaily article. So, there is a danger of getting caught in a circular logic: The WorldNetDaily article is supposed to be true, because it has quoted the Netzwerk Bildungsfreiheit press relase. And the Netzwerk Bildungsfreiheit press release is supposed to be true, because WorldNetDaily used it as a source for its article. A says that B says the truth, because B says that A says the truth.

6) As a third source you posted a link to an op-ed editorial taken from a Belgian right-wing blog (not exactly a mainstream source either) edited by Paul Belien. After some research I found out that Belien is homeschooling his own children too and that he claims that he is "persecuted" by the Belgian state because of this. So, we have basically the same problem like with the Netzwerk Bildungsfreiheit press release here. All sources originate from groups, organizations or individuals heavily (or even personally) in favor of homeschooling, who claim that they're persecuted by the authorities. (Granted, it might have been a mistake on my part to mention the Washington Times as a credible mainstream source. My bad.)

7) So, your three sources are: 1) A press release from a pressure group advocating homeschooling, 2) a article, which is based on information obtained from the aforementioned and similar groups, 3) an editorial taken from a blog edited by someone who is favoring homeschooling for his own children. All I'm saying is that it would be nice to hear the other side of the story or at least a more objective or un-biased assessment of this case. You know what I'm talking about? Something... neutral. Something written by someone who doesn't happen to be an pro-homeschooling advocate. The NUMBER of articles isn't so important as it is the quality and the credibility. You will probably find dozens of articles on the web claiming some evil conspiracy was behind 9/11. Does that mean whose articles are true?

[Middle-aged Europe]

But let's take a closer look at the editorial from Belien's blog:

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Um, I would like to know what Belien's source was. I hope it was not the WorldNetDaily article and the Netzwerk Bildungsfreiheit press release. At least it sounds very similar.

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First, that's an argument which did appear in the WorldNetDaily article too. You may notice that I'm getting suspicious.

Second, what's this obsession with Hitler and the Nazis anyway? Because Hitler was evil and he outlawed home-schooling, bans on home-schooling are evil? Sounds like a example of Goodwin's Law too me. It's true that home-schooling was illegal under Hitler too. But as far as I know the form of compulsary education which is in place in Germany today is based on the German consitution (Article 7 Sections 1 & 2, to be precise) which came into effect in 1949. A constitution which was approved by the Western occupation powers (United States, United Kingdom, Germany). It's interesting that everybody is so obsessed with Hitler, but no one is asking the question why General Eisenhower for example, as military governor of the American occupation zone, didn't see it as necessary to lift the ban on  homeschooling back then. Which leads us to the question: Was Dwight D. Eisenhower a fascist?

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True. That's because the overwhelming majority opposes it.

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Oh, no, not Hitler again. The message here is probably: Germans accept the current ban on homeschooling only because they're a people which obey orders unquestioningly... like they did under Hitler.
Well, I don't know whether I should feel insulted or amused, but in the end it's an argument too stupid to be insulted. So: LOL.

As I pointed out earlier, Germany is the country which held its last census in 1987 (three years before unfication!)... no government since then bothered to hold a new census, because they figured it's not worth the trouble. Another example would be Germany's military engagement abroad (e.g. Afghanistan) which is seen very critical by many Germans. In fact, the Schröder government almost broke apart over this issue back in 2001 (basically the same problem Prodi is facing in Italy recently). Or what about the anti-Hartz IV protests a few years ago? So, do we obey orders unquestioningly? Well, not really...

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As Lewis pointed out at the start of the discussions, German courts and authorities tend to pretty lenient in cases of home-schooling. For example, last year there was a case of a tiny christan-fundamentalist sect in Bavaria, whose members wanted to home-school their children (because of their opposition to the evolution theory and sex education). In the end the Bavarian state government and this religious group agreed on a compromise: This sect was allowed to found their own private school, where the children could be teached their way. (As I mentioned earlier, in Germany we have those state-recognized "subsitute schools" run by private organization or religious groups. Plus, those subsitute schools may apply for and receive public money.)

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Ah, well, here we have the same problem with the case we're discussing: What are Belien's sources? As Lewis said, German courts are usually pretty lenient. Which of course means that there could be exceptions from this rule...

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Ah, now the German school system isn't only compared with the Nazi school system, but also with the Soviet school system. Well, I can say one thing: I know first hand that the current school system is different from the school system which was place in East Germany.

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Ah, that seems to be a case similar to the Bavarian one I was just mentioning. As I said in this thread earlier, we have a federal system here. The standards for public and private schools tend to differ from state to state. They should try it in Bavaria or an similar state (Paderborn is located in Northrhine-Westphalia). If it all, this might prove that the ban on homeschooling in NRW is "fascist", but not in all of Germany. But it's interesting that Beilin mentions a case where a religious group was forbidden to found their own private school, but does not mention this Bavarian case where it was indeed allowed. This shows how objective the author really is.

[Middle-aged Europe]

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As I pointed out earlier: There as a pretty wide consensus in German society that compulsary education is a good thing and that it should stay the way it is.

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Great, Hitler AGAIN... The rest of this sentence is Beilin's personal opinion, which he is free to state. But otherwise I don't know what relevance it has.

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Well, what a nonsense. Nobody is charged with high treason in Germany. The last time this happened was probably really under Hitler. And usually, only neo-Nazis are charged with "Volksverhetzung". So this Stucher is either a Nazi himself who happens to advocate homeschooling (which would be kind of ironic since pro-homeschooling advocates like to compare the current school system with the Nazi school system) or it was made up by Beilin. Probably the latter. To make one thing clear: Homeschooling is illegal in Germany. Advocating the legalization of homeschooling is not. Otherwise this evengelical pressure group, WorldNetDaily and David S. mentioned, wouldn't exist.

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ROFLMAO

Well, the primary reason why children are supposed to be teached in either public or state-recognized private schools is that certain academic standards in their education should be met. I think everybody knows the usual arguments which are brought forward against homeschooling. That's why it is illegal in Germany.

Second, it is supposed to PREVENT children from getting indoctrinated. This WorldNetDaily article states that "the German Embassy has indicated they cannot allow 'parallel cultures.'" "Parallel culture" is actually a term which is normally applied to Muslim immigrants in Germany. So, homeschooling is banned to prevent children from getting indoctrinated by their fundamentalist parents (be it Islamic oder Christian fundamentalists). I would like to know what would WorldNetDaily write when homeschooling is legalized in Germany and Muslims start pull their children out of the public school system.

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Well, a lot of people from the former Soviet Union live in Germany. Most of them do not want to homeschool their children. Most people who want to homeschool their children also tend to be Germans and not immigrants from the former Soviet Union. So what kind of retarded argument is this? I LIVE in former East Germany (which was part of the former Soviet bloc), and I have never met one here who would have opposed compulsary education. If it all, I would suspect that the number pro-homeschooling advocates is actually higher in West Germany.

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It's true that compulsary education is considered normal and nobody is worried by it. But whose who "opt out of the state system" aren't exactly seen with suspicion. Most Germans simply think that they're stupid.

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As I mentioned earlier, Hitler's 1938 schooling bill was in effect until 1945. The current compulsary education is based on the German Basic Law of 1949 as well as the respective state consitutions passed between 1945 and 1949... which were approved by the then-governments of the US, the UK and France.

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Well, that last part is basically a rant against the EU and the UN, combined with additional comparisons with Nazi and Soviet education systems.

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Ah, at last we see what the goal of this editorial is.



Bottomline is that I won't take an editiorial claiming that the reason for the unpopularity of homeschooling in Germany is that "Germans tend to obey orders unquestioningly" very serious.

[David S]

If you google the girl's name you get something like 15,000 hits. Most of those are blogs. A few are news articles. So far I have not come across anything which refutes the article. I also checked Snopes.com but found nothing there, so I submitted the article to them. We'll see if they find anything.

I don't have a problem with anyone questioning the sources. But you could hold yourselves to the same standard you ask of me, post a credible source for your conclusions.

[NewFederalist]

I don't have a problem with anyone questioning the sources. But you could hold yourselves to the same standard you ask of me, post a credible source for your conclusions.

What's wrong with you, you old fart? Bowels troubling you today?

[minionofmidas]

Well I've posted three separate sources including one from a source Lewis asked for. Now since I am a mere mortal with a finite lifespan I prefer not to spend my remaining time looking for yet more sources. However since Lewis is immortal and has an infinite lifespan possibly he can devote a small bit of that life to finding a source which refutes the articles I posted.

I haven't asked for any news sources.

[minionofmidas]

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The claim is false anyways. Compulsory schooling (in government or government-approved schools) for ages six to fourteen (later amended upwards) has been part of the German constitution since 1920, but existed in most (all but Württemberg IIRC) long before that - in Prussia since the 18th century. It's *possible* that Hitler closed all private schools in 1938... I'd have to check that... but that's not the current situation anyways.

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End the German occupation of Germany now!

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Ah, well, here we have the same problem with the case we're discussing: What are Belien's sources? As Lewis said, German courts are usually pretty lenient. Which of course means that there could be exceptions from this rule...[/quote]Nobody, in Germany, is *sentenced* to a week in prison.
Such tiny sentences simply do not exist anymore, and have been completely replaced by fines, suspended sentences, suspended fines (no kidding), community work...
It is of course nonetheless possible that someone spent a week in prison. While organizing bail, say. Or because he elected not to pay his fine.

[minionofmidas]

If you google the girl's name you get something like 15,000 hits.

Googling "Hermann Stucher", though, gets you a grand total of three hits. He seems to be a figment of Mr Belien's imagination.

[RIP Robert H Bork]

Germany is still a fascist, Nazi country. The Germans should be ashamed of themselves!

[Franzl]

WTF?