My flustrations on race

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

This is VERY difficult for me to post.  I have always prided myself (even during my Neo-confederate phase as a young teen) on believing that "all men were created equal" and that there is absolutely no difference between people of different ethnicities and skin colors.

And, of course, I still fundamentally believe that.

But, as of late, I've become increasingly concerned about the cultural differences that exist between the races around here.  

My favorite columnist in the whole world is Wendi Thomas.  She's a local reporter with the Commercial Appeal, the daily rag for Memphis.  She's a lot like me - Socially progressive but Culturally conservative.  Somehow, that makes sense  She's African-American, so she can speak the truth a lot more easily than a white person could.

She wrote an article on Thursday entitled "Is tipping as clear as black & white" and a follow up today after receiving numerous responses.  She detailed how black people often feel that good service at resturants is something they are "entitled" to.  Of course, this feeling comes from the culture of entitlement that liberals have instilled in African-Americans.

Here's what some of the waiters said about black customers:

"Many black customers "will also find petty things to complain about, and then demand that the management give all 20 of them a free meal," - Paul Cicala

"I believe that black people think they are entitled to something for nothing. I had had more problems with them not wanting to pay at all. It was always something, it’s too cold or it’s not done, this was after they had eaten most of the meal." - Stuart Ledman

"I worked at [a barbecue restaurant] for 2 years and discovered that it did seem true that blacks tipped less if at all. My coworkers and I fought over who had the black tables. I usually got the short straw, it seemed, and regularly practiced reverse discrimination to try and get a tip. Sometimes it worked, but usually it didn’t." - Russ Brasfield

According to Thomas's article, There was actually a study done by a Cornell professor that found that "on average, black people tip 20 percent less than white people, even when results were controlled for income, age and quality of service."

Of course there are many blacks who aren't this rude and who actually try to make up for other blacks. "Carl Smith goes even further. When he sees other black people leave paltry tips, he finds that server to "give them $10 or $20 just to . . . hopefully help them realize that it's not representative of all African Americans."

The words in Ledman's quote that I put in bold are very important and are worth repeating - "I believe that black people think they are entitled to something for nothing."

Wow.

The original article can be found at Is tipping as clear as black & white

The responses she recieved from readers can be found at Reader responses

Today's article can be found at Why don't we tip? Not so fast.


I've got a gay friend who you would think would be the least prejudiced because of his own experiences with bigotry.  He often complains about blacks cutting in front of him when he's driving because blacks "do not believe the rules apply to them".  I showed him that ad I did in the fantasy forums and he said "Heck, even I would have voted for David Duke." (and I didn't even need to show him who Duke was being put up against  )

I was talking to another friend of mine about the impending decline of Cordova, one of the city's best neighborhoods.  When you're talking about neighborhoods in Memphis, it's like discussing a battlefield.  It's like every white person in Memphis knows the next move of the black battle plan.  Cordova is next to be attacked and there is nothing we can do about it but sell our homes and try to get a good price before the values go down.  I drove down a street in Cordova the other day and it seemed like I saw more "for sale" signs in yards than yards without them.

He was telling me about what happened recently in the public park in Cordova.  His wife took their son to play in the park.  Even though the community is still overwhelmingly white, black children were laying on the slide..all of the slides.  Keep in mind.. they weren't sliding.. they were LAYING on it.  The mother went over and politely asked the child to slide down the slide so that her child could follow.  The black child refused and rudely said "Whatever".  All of the black children were the same way.  They wouldn't move, they wouldn't get out of the way.  If I had acted like that to an adult as a kid, my ass would have been red for weeks.  I felt so angry, and so embarrassed that I used to go around preaching equality all the time.

Personally, I live in a "surrounded" white enclave that is right on the battle lines but protected by international  peacekeepers from Mexico, if you get the drift of the analogy here  I used to get angry about my neighbors moving... but now all I want to do is make enough money to join them in the retreat.

Yesterday, I went to a meeting in Crossville, Tennessee.  It's a decent sized community in the heart of the Cumberland plateau.

Before the meeting, I got hungry so I went to the McDonalds and couldn't believe how busy it was.  There was hardly a space in the parking lot and when I got in the door I only saw one vacant seat.  I thought, given my experiences in Memphis, that it would take forever to get served and there would be a line a mile long.  I was surprised to see three smiling people at the counter awaiting my order.  I ordered my chicken sandwich and started observing what was going on in the back of the kitchen.  EVERYBODY was working and was working fast.  Then the manager came out and screamed happily in her beautiful southern accent "Ain't this great!!!!" to encourage her team and everybody smiled and continued working.  They all seemed so happy to be there, so happy to be serving others.  It took maybe 45 seconds for me to get my meal and that came with an apology for it taking "so long."  You'd be fortunate at a McDonalds in Memphis to get your order within 2  minutes in a facility that wasn't nearly as busy.

All of the Crossville McDonalds employees were white.  Just to make sure I wasn't the only one thinking about it, I asked a friend who was with me (who was also astonished at the quality of the service) what he thought the differences between the McDonalds in Memphis and the one in Crossville was.  The color of the employees was all we could come up with.

As we were getting back to Memphis, we pulled into a gas station.  I heard the unmistakable harsh rythym of rap music.  I was in an enclosed car on the other side of the station with the windows closed and the air conditioning on full blast but I could still hear the music clearly.  But just in case I didn't, the owner of the rap-playing vehicle opened her door and kept the door open while she walked into the gas station (which seemed kinda stupid to me) so that everyone would have the opportunity to hear her (c)rap music.

My friend had gone into the gas station and when he came out, he said to me "You know, I think this neighborhood is going downhill".  I told him "Yeah, I know what you mean."  A long time ago, I would have complained to my friend that he shouldn't look at people "through the prism of skin color" and should apologize for exposing me to any sort of racially-motivated thought.

We need to clue some members of the African-American community that, despite what Liberals say, they are indeed a part of America and need to start acting like it.

[minionofmidas]

Didn't read the whole post (yet), but if you go to a restaurant you are bloody well entitled to at least reasonably good service, yes. And 20% tips are just bloody absurd.

[Nym90]

As a former delivery driver of both pizza and subs, I can attest to the fact that blacks, on average, tended to tip less. And it wasn't because I was white. The black delivery drivers also got tipped a lot less or not at all by the black customers. So it wasn't a case of the black customers being racist and refusing to tip a white driver, they didn't tip the black drivers either.

For what it's worth, women of both races tended to tip less than men, as well. And again, this held regardless of the gender of the driver.

I'm not sure as to why this is, though. I don't think it has anything to do with a sense of entitlement bestowed by liberals. I strongly oppose race-based AA in this day and age. I would've supported it 40 years ago as a temporary measure to bring about equality. I do, however, support class-based AA, which would still disproportionately benefit blacks, since they tend to on average have lower incomes.

The bottom line is that rude, disrespectful behavior should not be tolerated by anyone. We should go beyond looking at race, and rather than immediately placing the focus on blacks as worse then whites and then trying to point the finger of blame at one political party, instead try to focus on changing the cultural upbringing of the individuals in question. Even if there may be a statistically proveable correlation, it does no good for society to keep looking at this as a racial problem. Let's get beyond race and look at people as individuals.

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

...and your servers are bloody well entitled to be able to afford food and shelter for themselves and their families.

Usually, a waiter/waitress only makes $2/hour because it is assumed that their tips will at least bring them up to minimum wage.

Didn't read the whole post (yet), but if you go to a restaurant you are bloody well entitled to at least reasonably good service, yes. And 20% tips are just bloody absurd.

[Nym90]

Didn't read the whole post (yet), but if you go to a restaurant you are bloody well entitled to at least reasonably good service, yes. And 20% tips are just bloody absurd.

Lewis--

In Europe, this would be true, but in America, a 15% tip is considered the expected tip, anything less is considered an insult. If you tip less than 15%, then you are making a clear statement (whether you realize it or not) that the service was unsatisfactory and should have been of a higher quality.

Remember, most of these people make $2/hour without tips. They depend on tips for most of their income.

That being said, I don't think business owners should be allowed to pay anyone less than the regular minimum wage. I agree with you in principle that customers shouldn't have to pay such a significant portion of the wages of the waiters/waitresses/delivery drivers, and that this burden should be borne by the business owners instead...but in the meantime, until the law is changed, it's the right thing to do to tip well.

[minionofmidas]

As a former delivery driver of both pizza and subs, I can attest to the fact that blacks, on average, tended to tip less. And it wasn't because I was white. The black delivery drivers also got tipped a lot less or not at all by the black customers. So it wasn't a case of the black customers being racist and refusing to tip a white driver, they didn't tip the black drivers either.

For what it's worth, women of both races tended to tip less than men, as well. And again, this held regardless of the gender of the driver.

I'm not sure as to why this is, though. I don't think it has anything to do with a sense of entitlement bestowed by liberals.

Tipping instead of paying a decent salary right away is basically a way of holding people down. I would guess that (White, as I now find) Americans' excessive tipping habits are/were related to the deep chasm between the races. (I would add that "race is the American class".) If that's true, the rest is hardly surprising.

[ilikeverin]

Pt 1 I mostly agreed with, but maybe they tip less because they have less to tip with.

I was talking to another friend of mine about the impending decline of Cordova, one of the city's best neighborhoods.  When you're talking about neighborhoods in Memphis, it's like discussing a battlefield.  It's like every white person in Memphis knows the next move of the black battle plan.

So, let's see, it's not because blacks were forced in the communities they were because of segregation years ago, or even now, and they're trying to reduce overcrowding... no, it's because they have some beef against white people and they take it out by buying property.

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1) Who says its because they were black?

2) Who says that's bad?

3) Who says that the woman's view wasn't biased and gave her side of the story, making her question polite and the African American kids crude?

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Who says it's because they were African American? Couldn't it be because the Memphis workers were... say... lazy?  Or maybe the Crossville workers are particularly 'peppy'?  Or maybe you keep coming in at the wrong times (end of shifts) in Memphis but you came at a good time in Crossville?  Or maybe the black workers are paid less in Memphis...

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Who cares?  As much as I hate rape music (It's wearing away the moral fiber of my generation ), it's her right to do that.  You should have blasted Memphis Public Radio or whatever right back at her (trust me, it works... I have a story about that if you want )!  Also, why do you assume that she's black, and therefore she likes it?  Can't she just... like it *shudder, shudder*?

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Stop making blanket accusations!

Besides, I have no clue what you mean by blacks having a sense of entitlement.  Don't they make less for the same work as us (check my figures, I'm too lazy to check them myself )?  I, personally, am opposed to race-based Affirmative Action... but you're having me rethink that position.  Overall, I get from you, "_____ was worse, and the people involved were African American.  Therefore, ______ is worse because the people involved were African American".

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

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The study was controlled for income.  If you can afford a $100 dinner at Corky's, you can afford a $15 tip.

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Reduce overcrowding?  Black neighborhoods aren't overcrowded.  Many of the schools there barely have enough kids to keep the doors open.  It's the white schools that are overcrowded.

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1) the kids in question were black
2) You think its a good thing to lie down on a slide and keep other kids (white and black) from playing on them?

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I'd be willing to agree with you that Memphis workers were lazy

I've been to McDonalds at all times of the day and night... you've commented on my weight... do you not believe I am a regular customer?

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Should I assume that this woman had black face paint on and was playing music in her car that she didn't like???

I shouldn't have to start a music battle with anyone.  People should have the courtesy to keep their music inside their own vehicle.

Verin - what part of your town do you live in?  Suburban, urban - good/bad, etc?

[AuH2O]

Well, you're going to be very confused if you begin by thinking "all men are created equal." People don't understand what that used to mean: people are entitled to equal protection under the law.

People are not equal, not even close. I'm not nearly tall enough to play basketball, other people aren't smart enough to go to college, etc. You cannot accomplish 'anything' you set your mind to. People have limits, and that is just plain ol' reality.

Those limits begin in the genes. The primary determinant of someone's abilities is their genetic makeup, followed by environment. If your IQ is 75, well, you're out of luck. Society can do things to ameliorate the condition of such people, but finding them success is impossible.

On average, people of black descent have lower IQs than those of white or asian descent. Intelligence is more critical than many people think: it is the key factor in a person's ability to properly judge their own interests. Smart people, for instance, realize their interests are advanced by getting an education and obeying the law. Less intelligent people do a poor job of determining and protecting their interests.

Democracy, in fact, requires citizens to determine their interests- otherwise they cannot vote wisely or be trusted to obey the law. Quite literally nothing can be done in the US to bring 'equality' to blacks- except to mix everyone together such that there are no substantive differences. But that would take hundreds and hundreds of years, besides the tendency of people to select spouses of roughly equal intellect (and usually of the same race).

Interestingly, interracial relations are a biological abormality; people are genetically coded to prefer mates that look somewhat similar to themselves. In the US, they happen primarily due to social construction. Cooperation amongst people of different races, however, should not be so difficult as it is. This is also a result of societal brainwashing; if people understood race properly, people of different races could get along without fear and resentment.

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

AuH20, I am thorougly disgusted with your post.

I'd like to remind the readers that this nut was born in the north....

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

The problem we have in America is that liberals teach blacks that all whites (except limo liberals, of course) are pond scum like you.

[AuH2O]

I was born in Virginia, which is not the North (I don't think!). My parents are from NJ though.

The key, Gov., is that you have a closed mind. You won't accept science and empirical fact. You are caught up in leftist propaganda... typical, but sad nonetheless. Intelligent whites are not so easily fooled.

You deserve whatever may befall you as you become a minority where you live...

note: the race debate is interesting when compared to that on homosexuality.

right: homosexuality is a choice, thus wrong
left: homosexuality is genetic, not wrong

Now, race.

far right: racial differences are genetic, thus not anyone's fault
left: there are no racial differences

Missing in leftist ideology is the factor to be blamed; why are blacks in jail? Dropping out of HS? Making less money? If you fail to explain these, you have no right to tell anyone anything...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

AuH20, I am thorougly disgusted with your post.

I'd like to remind the readers that this nut was born in the north....

Public Service thingy:

AuH20 is a fan of Umberto Bossi and Jean-Marie Le Pen

[ilikeverin]

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The study was controlled for income.  If you can afford a $100 dinner at Corky's, you can afford a $15 tip.

I was more talking about the article not the study  So, I'll continue on that route.

Who says that tipping was the norm?  Couldn't it just stick out in their minds?

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Reduce overcrowding?  Black neighborhoods aren't overcrowded.  Many of the schools there barely have enough kids to keep the doors open.  It's the white schools that are overcrowded.
[/quote]

If they really are undercrowded, they should close them.

Anyway, here in MN, Minneapolis schools are extremely crowded, and it's not going to get any better because of budgetary schools forcing the closure of a middle school.

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1) the kids in question were black
2) You think its a good thing to lie down on a slide and keep other kids (white and black) from playing on them?
[/quote]

1) No, I said 'who says it's because they were black?'  Once again, couldn't they be lazy?  Or just weird?  
2) No, but maybe they like that.  I'm not sure.  Are you sure they were interfering with others besides that kid?

Besides, couldn't the person just go to another park?

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I'd be willing to agree with you that Memphis workers were lazy

I've been to McDonalds at all times of the day and night... you've commented on my weight...
[/quote]

I have? I think I just commented on your chipmunk cheeks

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Should I assume that this woman had black face paint on and was playing music in her car that she didn't like???
[/quote]

Once again, you seem to have missed my question.

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You seem to assume because she's black, she likes it, not just that she's black, and she likes it.

I think it's possible that she could be listening to something she doesn't like... I bet some of the kids in my school would hate rap if they just listened to what they were dancing to instead of 'going with the flow'.

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Once again, it seems to me that you're suggesting that because she's black, she blares music.

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Suburban, good, upper-middle-class to high-class type of town, so I probably am the least competent to make a decision about this.  I have never been in an inner city type situation, and try to avoid it whenever I can.

Happy?

However, I do have a growing minority of Somalis in my school district (which is pretty shocking, considering that I live in a white-with-small-Asian-minority suburb, but they bus here to take advantage of the excellent school system I'm in... which I have no problem with ), some of whom listen to rap music incessantly, and some (female) who are really nice.

Plus, I have been to the Detroit ghetto!

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

Well in the Atlas Forum, Virginia is not in the southeastern region  But yes, I was thinking of what you told me about your yankee parents.

On behalf of all of the unintelligent whites around here, like myself, who are "fooled" by the concept of racial and ethnic equality... I apologize for not being up to your standards of "intelligence."  I hope, with all of your great knowledge and intelligence, oh great master, you will enlighten us as we have gone so far astray.

*sarcasm*

I was born in Virginia, which is not the North (I don't think!). My parents are from NJ though.

The key, Gov., is that you have a closed mind. You won't accept science and empirical fact. You are caught up in leftist propaganda... typical, but sad nonetheless. Intelligent whites are not so easily fooled.

You deserve whatever may befall you as you become a minority where you live...

[AuH2O]

Quick question: does everyone here agree Kenyans win all major marathons because of random chance?

Maybe they have better training equipment in Kenya???

[JohnFKennedy]

Well in the Atlas Forum, Virginia is not in the southeastern region  But yes, I was thinking of what you told me about your yankee parents.

On behalf of all of the unintelligent whites around here, like myself, who are "fooled" by the concept of racial and ethnic equality... I apologize for not being up to your standards of "intelligence."  I hope, with all of your great knowledge and intelligence, oh great master, you will enlighten us as we have gone so far astray.

*sarcasm*

I was born in Virginia, which is not the North (I don't think!). My parents are from NJ though.

The key, Gov., is that you have a closed mind. You won't accept science and empirical fact. You are caught up in leftist propaganda... typical, but sad nonetheless. Intelligent whites are not so easily fooled.

You deserve whatever may befall you as you become a minority where you live...

Htmldon,

The polite response is just to spit.

[AuH2O]

Why does no one answer these basic questions...

to correct someone as clearly erroneous as myself...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Quick question: does everyone here agree Kenyans win all major marathons because of random chance?

Maybe they have better training equipment in Kenya???

It's a cultural thing. If you knew anything about Bantu culture and social structure, you'd understand.

[AuH2O]

Explain it.

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

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Thats the point.  They DO keep going to another park.  They move to a new area.  A new park is built.  5 years pass.  Blacks from other neighborhoods start using the park because their playgrounds are gang recruiting zones.  The neighborhood changes and the "For Sale" signs go up.  They move to a new area.  A new park is built.  5 years.......

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

Suburban, good, upper-middle-class to high-class type of town, so I probably am the least competent to make a decision about this.  I have never been in an inner city type situation, and try to avoid it whenever I can.

That's what I thought.   You are SO a stereotypical liberal!

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Explain it.

The Bantu used to be cattle herders. Cattle were central to their way of life (in KwaZulu people who stole from the Kings herds were executed) and as they didn't keep dogs, running was the only way of herding the cattle.
Settlements tend to be a long way from each other (and often a long way away from water) and roads (where they exist) are little better than dirt tracks, and they don't ride their animals.
So running is natural. It's just something people do, and is as normal for them as getting in a car is to you.

[Michael Z]

On average, people of black descent have lower IQs than those of white or asian descent. Intelligence is more critical than many people think: it is the key factor in a person's ability to properly judge their own interests. Smart people, for instance, realize their interests are advanced by getting an education and obeying the law. Less intelligent people do a poor job of determining and protecting their interests

There is, however, the question of whether IQ is genetical (the Eysenck argument) or whether it depends on the kind of social environment a child grows up in. I personally believe that every human is capable of reaching a high level IQ if the social conditions are right to nuture the development of intelligence (permitting of course that the child does not suffer from some extreme form of mental disability).

Many African-Americans grow up in comparatively poor conditions in which they don't have easy access to books, etc, as people from a middle class background might, so if anything this issue is related to socialisation, not race.

[AuH2O]

We're making a little progress.

First, on the Bantus history: you are absolutely correct. For many generations, their people had to be excellent endurance runners. Over time, this results in microevolutionary trends... genes for superb running were more likely to multiply. After all, you can't reproduce if you die on the way to your destination.

So, they are genetically predisposed towards distance running. The difference does not have to be particularly huge to offer a massive advantage; with the quanity of 'good runner' genes in their population, they churn out the top runners. Doesn't mean they all are good.

As to the present: their current lifestyle has nothing to do with their success. Other Africans face similar situations, and Westerners have access to all kinds of instruction and training. I'm not sure if you know any top runners, but I do. They train all the time... often they will vomit several times during a hard practice. They know exactly what weights and machines to use in the exercise room. They know exactly what to eat.

And guess what? There are thousands of Kenyans that would smoke them all the same. In a Minneapolis marathon coming up, they had to ban foreign runners-- because otherwise no Americans would participate. The foreigners (mostly Kenyans) supported this, because they want Americans to keep interested in the sport.