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Author Topic: UK: Howard's Tories show their true face  (Read 6855 times)
Michael Z
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« on: November 15, 2003, 07:54:46 pm »
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3274245.stm

David Davis backs reintroduction of death penalty.

Just as I predicted. The Tories under Michael Howard are descending back into the cynical right-wing populism the Conservative party was hated for during the Major era.

What price on Charles Kennedy being leader of the opposition in 2005?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2003, 10:34:01 am by Michael Zeigermann »Logged
Sibboleth
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2003, 06:02:24 am »
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What the hell is Davis playing at?
His seat is very marginal and is not bedrock conservative.
If he goes on like that for much longer he'll go the way of Martin Taylor-Smith(the far-right Tory candidate for Ludlow in 2001 who lost to a Liberal in the biggest upset of the night).
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Peter
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2003, 08:01:27 am »

Absolutely bizarre.
He is likely to find some not too subtle condemnation from the left of the party. If Howard has any sense he will sack him here and now and then put somebody like Dorrell in post.

Would not surprise me if a few of the left wing groups move to censure a comment like that. As for Kennedy as leader of the opposition, I think not, Howard's common performances will be too good.

BTW, I just noticed that none of the party leaders were actually born in England.
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Sibboleth
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2003, 08:58:18 am »
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True. Micheal Hecht is the son of Romanian ASYLUM SEEKERS and was born in Llanelli.
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« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2003, 05:29:53 am »
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The Tories make me sick. They are clearly the same old bigotted party they were 20 years ago. Re-introducing the death penalty into the UK would be an absolute outrage. Dozens of innocent people would've sentenced to death as a result of police bungling and Tory interfearence if we hadn't abolished it in 1965. To think I was actually comtemplating switching my vote. I wonder what far-right populist remarks they will come out with next? Stopping benefits for the unemployed, sending back asylum seekers, more rabidly homophobic back-to-basics nonsense? When will this party drag itself into the 21st century and stop sticking their oar into people's private lives. The courts are perfectly able to dispense justice on their own without the interfearence from David Davis and Micheal Howard.
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Sibboleth
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« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2003, 12:10:59 pm »
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Look on the bright side. You can vote against Davis in his own seat.

Decapitation...
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« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2003, 12:55:31 pm »
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and is a majority of the public as clearly opposed to capital punishment as you are??

I myself have wrestled with the issue my whole life. My religious beliefs mitigate against it but knowing human nature, I do believe that it MAY have some preventive effect and save lives.
Criminals always tend to believe they can eventually "get away with it"- wrangle out through the legal system somehow/sometime later. It's only the belief that they may actually face the electric chair that could make them think twice.

In any event I believe the current system in the US is broken and I would support a moratorium till the defects can be addressed. However I just cant say whether I definitely support or oppose the death penalty itself. It's probably the only such major issue where I simply can't make up my mind.
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« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2003, 02:25:36 pm »
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Public opinion on Capital punishment is... erm hypocritical to say the least.

Although about 66% are apparently in favour of it for paedophila etc. over 80% don't think it actually work and about 60% would never(under any circumstances) vote for someone who espoused the Death penalty.

It's a pointless discussion anyhow... it is now ILLEGAL to bring the Death penalty back under a Euro treaty of some description.
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« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2003, 05:26:47 am »
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Very true. The majority of people would agree that child murderers/paedophiles should be executed. However in Britain there have been a long chain of travesties of justice, whereby innocent people have been convicted, in cases framed, for crimes they didn't do. These people would have presumably been put to death? In fact the last person ever to be executed in the UK, was reckoned to be innocent.
This means that in practice very few people would actually vote for a return of the death penalty and rightly so. In any case the UK could never vote for it's return or we would face severe sanctions from the EU.
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Michael Z
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« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2003, 09:14:31 am »
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RP and English are absolutely right there. Furthermore, it's no so much the fact that David supports the death penalty which vexes me - it's the fact that he is indulging in lowest common denominator politics of the worst kind. His statements were blatantly designed to attract headlines and appeal to the basest instincts of the British people. I hate that kind of populism. It's patronising and insulting.

In a way I should thank Mr. Davis, because he reminded me of why I would never vote for the Conservatives.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2003, 09:20:13 am by Michael Zeigermann »Logged
Mr. Fresh
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« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2003, 02:28:46 pm »
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...here's a question, how do you feel on abortion?
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« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2003, 03:09:46 pm »
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I disapprove of abortion exception in medical circumstances/rape etc. but I think it should be legal.

[insert manufacturors of wire coat-hangers here]
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« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2003, 05:28:47 am »
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...here's a question, how do you feel on abortion?

I too am against it in principle. It definately should not be an option just because someone decides they 'don't want a baby'. In those cases they should have the baby adopted, not terminated. In cases where there is a serious medical risk to mother or child, or where the child is conceived through rape I believe abortion is justified. For the latter two reasons I would not ban abortion.
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Michael Z
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« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2003, 11:56:57 am »
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I'm with RP here. Making it illegal wouldn't stop women who want to have an abortion from doing so anyway; if anything, it would ensure that hundreds of women will undergo illegal and therefore unsupervised, and therefore extremely dangerous procedures.

I generally share the sentiment expressed above, that abortion is abhorrent (what people also tend to forget is the serious emotional trauma women can go through), but perhaps a necessary evil in the case of rape or serious medical concerns.

Some regard abortion as murder, but ultimately that depends on whether you believe that life begins at birth, or at conception.
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Mr. Fresh
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« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2003, 08:33:57 pm »
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I am surprised and happy by the outcome and replies above.  Smiley
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« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2003, 05:35:51 pm »
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I am satisfied by the reaction of David Davis' colleagues that there is no traction for Davis' views.

I abhor capital punishment.

To suggest that his comments on an issue which is clearly a conscience vote, were party policy, is erroneous.

To those seeking a refreshingly modern view on issues from the Tory party, I would suggest that the conscience vote on section 28 under Howard will be a sign of things to come.

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« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2003, 04:18:43 am »
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Section 28 has been ABOLISHED so whatever Tory M.P's think about it does not matter.
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« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2003, 04:04:20 pm »
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You're quite right -- I apologise -- I meant rights for same-sex couples rather than section 28.  My apologies.
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