Never Forgive, Never Forget

[Bono]

www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1135

An Anniversary That We Must Never Forget
Anthony Gregory

This [Thursday], April 19, 200[7], is the [fourteen] year anniversary of the fiery culmination of the 51-day standoff between federal officials and the Branch Davidians at Waco, Texas, in which more than seventy civilians died, including nearly two dozen children. Many have more or less forgotten the event and simply want the rest of us to get over it.

Most people would agree it was a huge disaster, but some controversy still exists as to how blameworthy the government is. Some Americans accuse the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) and FBI of committing outright murder. On the other hand, some who may concede that authorities acted inappropriately do not think we should dwell upon it too much; it was [fourteen] years ago, after all. Either interpretation should leave all us with a fear in our hearts that is profoundly unsettling.

First, a recap:

The initial ATF raid on March 28, in which several Davidians and four agents died, was orchestrated with shady justifications. Although the ATF officially claimed they were there to search the Davidian home for illegal firearms, months before the raid sect-leader David Koresh had offered to give bureau agent Davy Aguilera a tour and show him all their firearms, but Aguilera refused. The ATF also claimed they had only wanted to bring Koresh and not his followers into custody, but if this was the case, they could have simply arrested him while he was out jogging or visiting local bars. Their real reasons for the raid? Multiple agents interviewed by 60 Minutes said they believed the assault was planned as a publicity stunt to improve ATF’s public image, recently tarnished by reports of sexual harassment within the agency.

After the forty-five minute gunfight, a stand-off ensued and the FBI took over, turning the siege into a military operation. They harassed the press and kept them two miles away from the scene. They called in Army tanks and heavy artillery. Although the FBI said their ultimate goal was to draw the Davidians out of the building, the agency often threw flash-bang grenades at people who did come out, scaring them back inside. The agency used psychological warfare, shining bright lights at the building and playing recordings on loud speakers throughout the night of sheep being slaughtered, Tibetan monks chanting, and Nancy Sinatra singing “These Boots Were Made For Walking.”

The conflagration that ended it all had government malice written all over it. The FBI had smashed a hole in the building with a tank, which then pumped CS gas into the building for six hours before the fire broke out. CS has been implicated in numerous international human rights abuses and was eventually outlawed for use in military combat in the Chemical Weapons Convention—months before it was used by the FBI against its own citizens at Waco. It is also flammable, and deadly in the high concentrations the Davidians were subjected to. Though the Davidians were accused of setting the fire, infrared evidence has shown that the FBI used incendiary devices on April 19, which could have sparked the flames that engulfed so many lives that day. The same evidence shows that FBI agents fired machine guns at the only remaining escape from the fire, after all other doorways had collapsed under the flames and the tank. Agents kept firefighters away from the fire until the entire building was burned down. The FBI then bulldozed the evidence and began a cover-up that continued into the lackadaisical Congressional hearings two years later.

Confronted with these facts, some will still excuse the federal government’s conduct at Waco. The most common arguments, along with simple refutations, are as follows:

    * “Koresh sexually abused children.”

    No evidence has proven this, and besides, barbecuing the children supposedly victimized by Koresh seems an outrageous remedy.

    * “They were a bizarre cult with dangerous weapons.”

    Even so, the first and second amendments to the Constitution expressly protect the rights of Americans who are so inclined. And even if you agree with the existing gun laws, no evidence shows the Davidians had broken any.

    * “Something had to be done before the cult hurt someone.”

    In America, you’re supposed to be innocent until proven guilty—let alone be sentenced to death before any crime has been committed.

    * “They killed four ATF agents.”

    The Davidian survivors were later acquitted in the murder trial on grounds of self-defense. Apparently, the jury thought they had a right to shoot the ATF agents who had attacked and killed several of them—and who had little reason to be there in the first place.

So government apologists come up with one final excuse: “Maybe the government handled it poorly, maybe their reasons for being there were questionable, and maybe Koresh wasn’t a real threat. But they didn’t know that at the time. They made a mistake. It was a catastrophe, but get over it.”

And that’s the worst argument of them all. How sad, that we live in a country that was founded on the concepts of liberty, presumed innocence, and limited government, where we’re now supposed to simply “get over it” when our government makes a “mistake” that results in eighty civilian deaths.

Waco must always be remembered. Every April 19, and every day. All decent Americans who love this country and the principles on which it was founded must resolve never to forget what happened there. Maybe then it will never happen again. But if we discount such atrocities as mere “mistakes”—and continue to allow the government perpetrators to go unpunished—we might see many more Wacos to come. And after every one of them, there will be plenty of people standing around telling us all to “get over it.”

[Wakie]

You're kidding me, right?  Ok, lets review the case and your arguments.

First, the ATF determined that they wanted to raid the BD compound.  Arguments can be made as to whether or not such a raid was justified.  But a federal judge authorized the raid and signed the warrants.  That is how the process works in this country.

Second, once the ATF agents began the raid members of the BD's fired on them.  A 45 minute gun battle ensued.  45 minutes.  That is MORE than enough time for the BD's to realize that the people they are battling are federal agents with warrants.

Third, your article claims "infrared evidence" shows the FBI used incendiary devices.  Sorry, we're going to need a source to go with that one.


Now lets change this scenario a little.  Instead of a "Christian" cult lets make them Muslims.  And lets change the date of the events to today.  So, federal agents raid a heavily armed Muslim compound to serve warrants and a 45 minute gun battle ensues.  Eventually there is the fire, the compound burns, and many die.  Do hardcore right wingers come out screaming and calling for Alberto Gonzales's head the way they did Janet Reno's?  Or do they call it justifiable actions in the War on Terror?

[Bono]

You're kidding me, right?  Ok, lets review the case and your arguments.

First, the ATF determined that they wanted to raid the BD compound.  Arguments can be made as to whether or not such a raid was justified.  But a federal judge authorized the raid and signed the warrants.  That is how the process works in this country.

A federal judge will sign a warrant for anything. You have not addressed the issues raised as to the necessity of the raid.

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The Davidian survivors were later sued for the murder of 4 BATF officers and acquitted on grounds of self-defense. Obviously the jury thought differently than you. 

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www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=4991

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Strawmen. You obviously don't know much about me.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

dude, come on, the Feds made mistakes, but the Branch Davidians are responsible for the loss of life.

Koresh claiming that he was Jesus can be dismissed with one passage:

Mat 24:23-27 If anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time. So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

[Bono]

dude, come on, the Feds made mistakes, but the Branch Davidians are responsible for the loss of life.

Koresh claiming that he was Jesus can be dismissed with one passage:

Mat 24:23-27 If anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time. So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Koresh was a fraud but that doesn't mean I support the burning to death of his followers.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Koresh was a fraud but that doesn't mean I support the burning to death of his followers.

Neither do I.  That is why Koresh should never have gotten in a "stand-off" with officials to begin with.  Koresh refused to surrender for weeks.  He refused to evacuate the children during the entire stand-off.  He refused for weeks the orders of authorities to open his doors.

The stand-off was result of Koresh not following the orders of authorities.  The stand-off was the result of Koresh not allowing the court system to sort out justice. 

However incompetent the ATF was, the responsibility of the loss of life lies at the feet of David Koresh.

Your position is indefensible.
 

[??????????]

The American Terrorist Front was responsible for setting the buildings on fire, however.

[Bono]

Koresh was a fraud but that doesn't mean I support the burning to death of his followers.

Neither do I.  That is why Koresh should never have gotten in a "stand-off" with officials to begin with.  Koresh refused to surrender for weeks.  He refused to evacuate the children during the entire stand-off.  He refused for weeks the orders of authorities to open his doors.

The stand-off was result of Koresh not following the orders of authorities.  The stand-off was the result of Koresh not allowing the court system to sort out justice. 

However incompetent the ATF was, the responsibility of the loss of life lies at the feet of David Koresh.

Your position is indefensible.
 

The ATF wasn't incompetent. On the contrary, they were dangerously competent. My accusation is that they were malicious, not incompetent.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

The American Terrorist Front was responsible for setting the buildings on fire, however.

How, exactly?

[??????????]

The American Terrorist Front was responsible for setting the buildings on fire, however.

How, exactly?

By throwing incidiaries into a wooden structure.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

The American Terrorist Front was responsible for setting the buildings on fire, however.

How, exactly?

By throwing incidiaries into a wooden structure.

If the authorities did not intentionally set fire to the compound, then any fire resulting from the assault is the fault of David Koresh.  Once the four ATF agents were killed in the initial raid, David Koresh had the obligation to surrender and allow the courts to run their course.  He chose instead to disregard authority for weeks on end, intentionally placing everyone inside at risk.

If one decides to maintain a stand-off with authorities, for whatever reason, and does not evacuate the innocent, then he is basically taking hostages and using them as human shields.

[Bono]

The American Terrorist Front was responsible for setting the buildings on fire, however.

How, exactly?

By throwing incidiaries into a wooden structure.

If the authorities did not intentionally set fire to the compound, then any fire resulting from the assault is the fault of David Koresh.  Once the four ATF agents were killed in the initial raid, David Koresh had the obligation to surrender and allow the courts to run their course.  He chose instead to disregard authority for weeks on end, intentionally placing everyone inside at risk.

If one decides to maintain a stand-off with authorities, for whatever reason, and does not evacuate the innocent, then he is basically taking hostages and using them as human shields.

The subsequent court ruled that the surviving Davidians were acting in self-defense when they killed the four ATF agents. The people inside were staying of their own volition--you may argue that the children weren't, but their caretakers made the decision. I doubt Koresh was forcing anyone to stay--although the ATF often threw flash-bang grenades at people who did come out, scaring them back inside.

[MasterJedi]

I don't care, it was their fault anyway.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

But a federal judge authorized the raid and signed the warrants. 

And the same Republicans who complain about Waco don't seem to mind that Bush has removed warrants from the equation?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

The subsequent court ruled that the surviving Davidians were acting in self-defense when they killed the four ATF agents.

Fine.  Then after a higher authority arrives and a peaceful surrender has been agreed to, then you surrender and allows the courts to run their course.

---

The people inside were staying of their own volition--you may argue that the children weren't, but their caretakers made the decision.

Caretakers do NOT have the right to make the decision to keep children in harms way.  Period.

---

I doubt Koresh was forcing anyone to stay--although the ATF often threw flash-bang grenades at people who did come out, scaring them back inside.

[Bono]

The subsequent court ruled that the surviving Davidians were acting in self-defense when they killed the four ATF agents.

Fine.  Then after a higher authority arrives and a peaceful surrender has been agreed to, then you surrender and allows the courts to run their course.

First off, noting of the sort was attempted. The Davidians were bombarded with psychological warfare tactics--not what I'd call attempts to agree on a peaceful surrender. Besides, as the article said and you did not refute, if the only intention as to arrest Koresh, they could easily have done so. The only reason the standoff happened was due to an out-of-control federal agency that was drunk with power.
Second, should the colonists at Lexington-Concord, or the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto, to mention two events which also have today as their anniversary, also have waited for a higher authority to come in?

The people inside were staying of their own volition--you may argue that the children weren't, but their caretakers made the decision.

Caretakers do NOT have the right to make the decision to keep children in harms way.  Period.

I agree, but it's not like the children could come out if they wanted to, the ATF would probably throw a flashbang at them.

---

I doubt Koresh was forcing anyone to stay--although the ATF often threw flash-bang grenades at people who did come out, scaring them back inside.

[Richard]

Tyranny by the government as usual.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

[Boris, in a thread he entitled to incite non-forgiveness, spewing a bunch of nonsense justifying an outlaw who, claiming to be God, never subjected himself to the authority of men]

19 children along with some women had no problem leaving the site safely within a couple of days after the siege began

11 others were later ordered to leave by Koresh

[Wakie]

You're kidding me, right?  Ok, lets review the case and your arguments.

First, the ATF determined that they wanted to raid the BD compound.  Arguments can be made as to whether or not such a raid was justified.  But a federal judge authorized the raid and signed the warrants.  That is how the process works in this country.

A federal judge will sign a warrant for anything. You have not addressed the issues raised as to the necessity of the raid.

So all warrants are invalidated because it is not extremely challenging to obtain one?  Sorry, but the cops come banging at my door with a warrant (especially if I knew they were looking into me the way the BD's knew as evidenced by your statement that Koresh had spoken to them before) then I DO NOT have the right to start shooting at them.

And as to whether or not the raid was necessary ... I can honestly say I do not know.  But I do know that apparently someone whose job it is to expertly review this sort of thing felt there was reasonable cause.  Does that mean they were right?  No.  But then again hindsight is 20/20 (ala Iraq).

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Strawmen. You obviously don't know much about me.
[/quote]

You propped up the strawman in the beginning.  I just changed his religion.

[CARLHAYDEN]

You're kidding me, right?  Ok, lets review the case and your arguments.

First, the ATF determined that they wanted to raid the BD compound.  Arguments can be made as to whether or not such a raid was justified.  But a federal judge authorized the raid and signed the warrants.  That is how the process works in this country.

A federal judge will sign a warrant for anything. You have not addressed the issues raised as to the necessity of the raid.

So all warrants are invalidated because it is not extremely challenging to obtain one?  Sorry, but the cops come banging at my door with a warrant (especially if I knew they were looking into me the way the BD's knew as evidenced by your statement that Koresh had spoken to them before) then I DO NOT have the right to start shooting at them.

And as to whether or not the raid was necessary ... I can honestly say I do not know.  But I do know that apparently someone whose job it is to expertly review this sort of thing felt there was reasonable cause.  Does that mean they were right?  No.  But then again hindsight is 20/20 (ala Iraq).

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Strawmen. You obviously don't know much about me.

You propped up the strawman in the beginning.  I just changed his religion.
[/quote]

First, if memory serves me correctly, the "warrant" was signed by a Federal Magistrate, NOT an Aricle III. Federal District Court judge.  Generally, those clowns will sign anything put before them by the feds.

Second, a congressional investigation was scheduled in which the vicious, dishonest, racist and sexist thugs that comprise the Bureau of Alcolhol, Tobacco and Firearms would have been correctly raked over the coals.  The raid was to try to divert attention.