VATech shooting
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Poll
Question: What does it mean?
#1
He was just 'crazy'
 
#2
There is something deeply and pervasively wrong with American society
 
#3
Guns are the problem
 
#4
Other, please post
 
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Partisan results

Total Voters: 38

Author Topic: VATech shooting  (Read 2341 times)
opebo
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« on: April 19, 2007, 11:22:08 AM »

What is your analysis?
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elcorazon
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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2007, 11:30:56 AM »

1.  the kid was crazy and needed more help.
2.  guns are too easily accessible.  I analogize it to the whole wmd issue.  we went to war on suspicion that someone who we viewed as a bad actor might have wmd.  yet we don't have many restraints on our own people obtaining weapons that are not as serious, but still can create quite a tragedy relatively easily...
3. i can't really blame society at large.  all societies have outsiders and loners and people who don't fit in, or fell that they don't - yet, most of them don't go out and kill indiscriminately - if anything, we do need to improve our mental health system and try to take away some of the stigma to make people more comfortable dealing with these issues.  it's very complex though, and I'm not sure we should be creating policies out of this kind of oddball, yet tragic event.
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Middle-aged Europe
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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2007, 11:53:33 AM »
« Edited: April 19, 2007, 12:02:14 PM by Rock Strongo (aka Lance Uppercut) »

Primarily A, but also C.

B... well, only in the meaning that "society" (well, the people around him) could have figured earlier that he's insane and that he should have stayed in that mental institution. But I guess that doesn't really mean that "there is something deeply and pervasively wrong with American society".

So, A and C... damn, that's a poll without multiple options. Okay, A then.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2007, 02:22:55 PM »

For the most part I'm gonna go with A.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2007, 02:29:20 PM »

85% A
5% B
10% C
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2007, 04:50:52 PM »

Option 1 - and people like him shouldnt be allowed to have guns - and screw patient confidentiality w/ stuff like that.
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elcorazon
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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2007, 04:55:39 PM »

Option 1 - and people like him shouldnt be allowed to have guns - and screw patient confidentiality w/ stuff like that.
you're treading on thin ice with that argument.

who exactly are "people like him"?  And how do we decide that?  And how to we know that patient confidentiality can be screwed?  And who do you trust to make those decisions?

I think we should really take politics out of this stuff.  I am not a proponent of gun rights, but I honestly don't think my belief in gun control is impacted one way or the other by this kind of unusual tragedy.
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Wakie
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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2007, 05:09:11 PM »

Total nutcase.  What is sad and shocking though is that the BACKGROUND CHECK didn't seem to pick up the fact that he had been to several medical professionals who had deemed him to be a "danger to himself and others".

And yet he could buy a gun .....

Thank you Charlton Heston.
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2007, 08:29:31 PM »

Option 1 - and people like him shouldnt be allowed to have guns - and screw patient confidentiality w/ stuff like that.
you're treading on thin ice with that argument.

who exactly are "people like him"?  And how do we decide that?  And how to we know that patient confidentiality can be screwed?  And who do you trust to make those decisions?

I think we should really take politics out of this stuff.  I am not a proponent of gun rights, but I honestly don't think my belief in gun control is impacted one way or the other by this kind of unusual tragedy.

What I was referring to was that it needs to be accesible to gun stores ( don't know if it is - but if not it needs to be) - and needed to be accessible to hte University - at least their police and counselors - after the reports that he stalked people.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2007, 02:36:58 PM »

49.99% A
49.99% B
00.02% C
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J. J.
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2007, 03:42:46 PM »

A.

What gets me is that his classmates tried to reach out to him.

April is for loonies.
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bullmoose88
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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2007, 04:24:47 PM »

All of the above to some degree.

I'm torn on the idea of gun control, but I think there is an argument to be made for efforts to keep guns out of the hands of those who are...unhinged or otherwise criminals.


But as the old and annoying adage goes, guns don't kill people, people do (but the guns help)...something in society beyond the fact this one person was errm...f-ing crazy contributed. I don't know if its a lack of morals (I'd be skeptical at that claim) or just something about the American way of life that for some, contributes to the state of mind, or lack thereof, necessary for some an attrocity.
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David S
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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2007, 04:31:22 PM »

Obviously none of the existing laws or rules prevented this tragedy. However, the prohibition of guns on campus did insure that no one else could have a gun to defend themselves. This is a fundamental fallacy with laws that prohibit concealed carry. Law-abiding people will obey such laws, but criminals and lunatics who are hell-bent on destruction will not. That leaves the lunatics armed while their innocent victims are unarmed and unable to defend themselves.  But that in it’s self should not be the solution to such problems.

 A situation like this should never have arisen in the first place. The background check system should have prevented the sale of a gun to someone who was way past disturbed. Beyond that the mental health system perhaps should have placed him in an institution. Even without guns he could have been dangerous. In 1990 another lunatic killed 87 people in New York using a can of gas and a match as his weapons. Certainly keeping homicidal maniacs off the street is a valid function of government.

At this point it seems unclear whether the instant check system has a glitch in it or whether something just went wrong in this case which allowed an insane person to buy a gun. In either event that should get corrected.
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snowguy716
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« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2007, 07:48:19 PM »

First and foremost, he was crazy.  If he hadn't been crazy, this probably wouldn't have happened.

Secondly, guns are easily accessible to those who wish to kill others.  Mix accessibility to guns with craziness and you have a deadly combination.

Thirdly, maybe there is something wrong with American society.  But I don't know what is wrong or really how to fix it.
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Bandit3 the Worker
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« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2007, 09:41:58 PM »

He was on antidepressants. I wouldn't be surprised if the antidepressants made him do it. But you'll never hear this angle from the right-wing media.

Anyone remember about 10 years ago when there was some kid in Florida who was about 10 years old who went completely batty and attacked the police after he was given antidepressants?
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StatesRights
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« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2007, 09:46:01 PM »

Obviously none of the existing laws or rules prevented this tragedy. However, the prohibition of guns on campus did insure that no one else could have a gun to defend themselves. This is a fundamental fallacy with laws that prohibit concealed carry. Law-abiding people will obey such laws, but criminals and lunatics who are hell-bent on destruction will not. That leaves the lunatics armed while their innocent victims are unarmed and unable to defend themselves.  But that in it’s self should not be the solution to such problems.

 A situation like this should never have arisen in the first place. The background check system should have prevented the sale of a gun to someone who was way past disturbed. Beyond that the mental health system perhaps should have placed him in an institution. Even without guns he could have been dangerous. In 1990 another lunatic killed 87 people in New York using a can of gas and a match as his weapons. Certainly keeping homicidal maniacs off the street is a valid function of government.

At this point it seems unclear whether the instant check system has a glitch in it or whether something just went wrong in this case which allowed an insane person to buy a gun. In either event that should get corrected.

Obviously this is one reason why we should go back to the old system of the state forcing the mentally deranged into state run mental institutions.
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Bandit3 the Worker
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« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2007, 09:46:56 PM »

He was on antidepressants. I wouldn't be surprised if the antidepressants made him do it. But you'll never hear this angle from the right-wing media.

Anyone remember about 10 years ago when there was some kid in Florida who was about 10 years old who went completely batty and attacked the police after he was given antidepressants?

Found the link (so the thought police can't accuse me of making it up):

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-Pilot/issues/1996/vp960309/03090428.htm
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Bandit3 the Worker
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« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2007, 09:47:58 PM »

Obviously this is one reason why we should go back to the old system of the state forcing the mentally deranged into state run mental institutions.

Yes, we should force Bush into a mental institution.
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Gabu
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« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2007, 09:49:11 PM »

He was on antidepressants. I wouldn't be surprised if the antidepressants made him do it. But you'll never hear this angle from the right-wing media.

Anyone remember about 10 years ago when there was some kid in Florida who was about 10 years old who went completely batty and attacked the police after he was given antidepressants?

Found the link (so the thought police can't accuse me of making it up):

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-Pilot/issues/1996/vp960309/03090428.htm

And you don't for one moment want to entertain the idea that perhaps what led to the prescription of Prozac was also what led to the observed behavior?

You don't give someone Prozac just for the heck of it.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2007, 09:50:12 PM »

Obviously this is one reason why we should go back to the old system of the state forcing the mentally deranged into state run mental institutions.

Yes, we should force Bush into a mental institution.

LOL, now that's merely opinion.
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Bandit3 the Worker
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« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2007, 09:50:49 PM »

You don't give someone Prozac just for the heck of it.

Actually they do give people antidepressants just for the heck of it. Or more accurately, just for the profit and control of it.
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bullmoose88
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« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2007, 09:51:31 PM »

He was on antidepressants. I wouldn't be surprised if the antidepressants made him do it. But you'll never hear this angle from the right-wing media.

Anyone remember about 10 years ago when there was some kid in Florida who was about 10 years old who went completely batty and attacked the police after he was given antidepressants?

Found the link (so the thought police can't accuse me of making it up):

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-Pilot/issues/1996/vp960309/03090428.htm

And you don't for one moment want to entertain the idea that perhaps what led to the prescription of Prozac was also what led to the observed behavior?

You don't give someone Prozac just for the heck of it.
Totally anecedotal Gabu, but rumor is that school principals and administrators try to get kids classified as ADD etc because it means they can ask the state for a ton of funding.

I have no evidence other than anecdotes passed onto me, so take that for what its worth.
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Bandit3 the Worker
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« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2007, 09:52:43 PM »

And you don't for one moment want to entertain the idea that perhaps what led to the prescription of Prozac was also what led to the observed behavior?

Also, if someone is prescribed an antidepressant for a real reason, the observed behavior must have been depression. The behavior exhibited here was not depression, but psychoticness.
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Gabu
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« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2007, 09:54:09 PM »

He was on antidepressants. I wouldn't be surprised if the antidepressants made him do it. But you'll never hear this angle from the right-wing media.

Anyone remember about 10 years ago when there was some kid in Florida who was about 10 years old who went completely batty and attacked the police after he was given antidepressants?

Found the link (so the thought police can't accuse me of making it up):

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-Pilot/issues/1996/vp960309/03090428.htm

And you don't for one moment want to entertain the idea that perhaps what led to the prescription of Prozac was also what led to the observed behavior?

You don't give someone Prozac just for the heck of it.
Totally anecedotal Gabu, but rumor is that school principals and administrators try to get kids classified as ADD etc because it means they can ask the state for a ton of funding.

I have no evidence other than anecdotes passed onto me, so take that for what its worth.

That's Ritalin.  Prozac is not prescribed for ADD.  Even I'm on the fence regarding the legitimacy of ADD of an actual thing that has isolatable physical causes.
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Bandit3 the Worker
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« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2007, 09:56:10 PM »

That's Ritalin.  Prozac is not prescribed for ADD.  Even I'm on the fence regarding the legitimacy of ADD of an actual thing that has isolatable physical causes.

ADD is a total scam.
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