Are we smarter than Bush?

[RRB]

I assume that you all know where I am headed here.

[MODU]

No, I doubt we are smarter than Bush.  Some of us are probably as smart as him, but in different subjects.

[Wakie]

I don't think Bush actually believes the BS of "they hate our freedom".

[J. J.]

I also don't think that al Qaeda hated use because of military bases in the Middle East (we did have any) and because we supported Israel (they never mention Isreal until after 9/11).

I think that they are afraid of western culture and its impact in the Islamic world and see the US as a symbol of it.

[Tender Branson]

I also don't think that al Qaeda hated use because of military bases in the Middle East (we did have any) and because we supported Israel (they never mention Isreal until after 9/11).

I think that they are afraid of western culture and its impact in the Islamic world and see the US as a symbol of it.

LOL. Do you know what you are talking about ?

I give you examples of ABC John Millers interview with Osama Bin Laden in May 1998:

Miller:

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Osama:

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Miller:

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Osama:

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http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/interview.html

[RRB]

Thank you Tender Branson.  I could not find those quotes from Bin Ladin.

The question remaines, Why is our president (and GOP candidates) still telling the country that they hate us because we are free, or that they don't like our culture.  This has nothing to do with anything. 

It appears that Americans are more interested in catch phrases than reality.   Bush won his second term largely on this message.

And now, Ron Paul is catching heat for suggesting that the US set the stage for terrorism when it is 99% true!  It boggles the mind.

Face it, if I came over to the home of any of you and kicked up a stink and would not leave because I thought I had the right to be there, eventually you would start doing things to me to make me want to leave.

[MODU]

As far as your poll goes, both answers are right.  It's not our freedom that they hate, but it is the symbol for which those in the areas which the terrorists are active in projects.  Many terrorist organizations do not believe in freedom of speech or freedom of religion, yet those freedoms are key in the US and western nations.  They also hate the fact that US forces are in their theatre of influence since we are capable of projecting our power aboard more effectively than they can.  As I've said before, Ron Paul is correct to the fact that our activities in other nations do breed discontent in certain groups, even when what we are doing is right and/or humane since it decreases the influence the terrorists have over those they are trying to subvert. 

[Speed of Sound]

I have to agree with the people that say Bush doesnt believe the crap he spews. Yes, they do find us immoral, but I must say that the former is by far the majority opinion.

[nlm]

 It's not our freedom that they hate, but it is the symbol for which those in the areas which the terrorists are active in projects. 

It's not even a symbol they project. The freedoms we enjoy have nothing to do with the reasons they wish us harm. Sure - many (if not all) of the middle eastern terrorists don't believe in freedom of religion - but that's about religious intolerance as opposed to freedom.

It's mainly about land and money and food and water and opportunity and who we support and who we don't. Right or wrong - we get the blame from many people in the middle east for their problems, and they have a lot of problems. Insted of making serious efforts to change those perceptions - we have been giving the people that propagate such perceptions every tool in the box to work with.

"They hate us because of our freedom" is one of the dumbest (and that is saying quite a lot) GOP talking points (let's not blame it all on Bush - he may have been the first to utter that nugget of idiocy, I'm not sure, but many of his brothers in arms have run with it).

[Joe Biden 2020]

I agree with MODU, both answers are true, but I chose the second option just because I could only choose one.  I'll refer you to MODU's post for my opinion.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

First opinion.

[nlm]

It's not necessarily our freedom they hate but our success.  Think about this forum, Opebo hates America and our capitalism because he is a failure in life, the same principle goes for the Middle East

No. They don't hate us because of our success - but because of the belief that our success is costing them. Subtract that belief and they wouldn't give a crap about our success.

And I'm sure that a poster on this board will find it amusing that a 16 year old that has never met that poster finds it within their ability to judge that persons entire life a failure. I find Opebo to be an odd sort of poster - but geeze.

[Wakie]

I think that the extremist Muslims view the West in a fashion similar to the way which arch Christian conservatives view homosexuals.

It is looking at someone as being evil and irrevocably sinful.  They point at things like natural disasters as being signs that God supports their cause.  They believe that the only answer is to "destroy" the evil.

Does that mean they "hate our freedom"?  Well, if they do then Pat Robertson hates the freedom of homosexuals.

[Colin]

Both are widely over simplified and make the conflict appear much more clear cut than it really is. You can never make the reasons for a conflict into a single sentence and when you do you create the fatal error of oversimplifying the situation. As Sun Tzu said the person who knows both himself and his enemy will always be the victor.

[Padfoot]

Very nicely put Colin.  I think that both answers are true but I think the majority of the anti-US sentiment in the Middle East stems from our unflinching support of Israel.  We treat Israel like a spoiled grandchild.  It seems like Israel can do no wrong in the eyes of the West.  I think much of that comes from our inability to admit that creating Israel was a mistake in the first place.    Not only did we essentially evict the people that were already living there, we also created a state in which the Jewish religion and government are closely intertwined in a region dominated by Muslims.  IMO The West Bank and Gaza should be reintegrated with Israel and they should all function under a secular government.

[DownWithTheLeft]

Wow, we had a good debate going here and it was deleted, why is there even a forum if you can't have heated debate?

[John Dibble]

As others have said, it's both.

First off, they do hate our freedoms - more specifically the values that cause them - because the terrorists hold the belief that anyone who does not believe in their specific set of beliefs is an infedel who should be killed. They don't even believe that Muslims with different beliefs are real Muslims, which is why they're so comfortable going after civilians in Iraq. Al Queda thinks that there should be a Taliban style government world-wide, and even if we weren't there in the Middle East they'd probably still be doing something violent towards that end. (though it would be more localized until they achieved their objective in Muslim countries first)

However, our continued presence in the Middle East gives them direct exposure to us, so not only are we infedels who deserve to die but we're also in their holy lands - something they can't forgive. They hate Switzerland just as much for the first reason, but since the Swiss aren't right there in front of them they're on the wayside. If our country was run by radical Islamists like the Taliban and we were on a jihad to make all Middle Eastern governments like that I doubt Al Queda would have as much of a problem with it. (they or others still might)

So, even if we left I don't think it would end the problem - it probably would just end up shifting it elsewhere.