Motion to Censure DWDL

[Rob]

I motion to censure Senator DownWithDaLeft for conduct unbecoming of this institution. He has labeled fellow Senators "stupid," "conceited," and "loony."  He is generally harsh and unpleasant, particularly when defending unpopular proposals.

It goes without saying that the Senate should have lively discussion, and honest criticism should be directed at our fellows and the laws we debate. But when criticism becomes abuse, the level of discourse falls into the gutter. That isn't good for the Senate, and it isn't good for Atlasia.

x Rob

[DownWithTheLeft]

This motion is absurd and obviously granted at the fact that I will not play along with Porce's little games

[Ebowed]

x Ebowed

[The Man From G.O.P.]

While it is not often that I will agree with the two Oregon Reds, I cannot support them more in this measure, indeed if he refuses to reguard the message this motion sends, I hope the Senate will back my call he resign all together. A Conservative Senate is not as important to me as a good Atlasian game.

DWTL, quiet down, or resign.

x  Senator TN2024

[SPC]

I'm just wondering, to be censured, does a Senator have to do something unconstitutional, or do they just have to be annoying?

[DownWithTheLeft]

This motion is still absurd as I have done nothing except refuse to play into Porce's game, it is amazing the strange turnaround TN has taken lately

[Joe Republic]

I would also like to point out to the Senate that for a period of time yesterday, Senator DWDL used an I-TN avatar, and had no reference to his residence in New Jersey, or to District Two as a whole.

This is a direct breach of Article V, Section 1, Clause 2 of the Constitution:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

(Thanks to Jas for that one.)

[DownWithTheLeft]

This is ridiculous, this game seems like it has become like real politics, try to stand for what is right and buy into what the bosses say and you lose.  Ridiculous, all I can say

[Joe Republic]

This is ridiculous, this game seems like it has become like real politics

Uh... good?

[DownWithTheLeft]

This is ridiculous, this game seems like it has become like real politics

Uh... good?

Read on, but I'll assume your being sarcastic

[Peter]

Okay, here's the redux on a few legal issues:

A Motion to Censure has neither a prerequisite action, nor any actual consequences. It has no basis in the Constituiton, Statute or Senate procedure as far as I am aware, and therefore at best can be viewed as a non-binding resolution of the Senate. The Senate may dole it out for whatever reason it likes, however, it can have no effect in Law since it has no basis in Law.

It can however be a stepping stone to more serious action, namely expulsion.

The Avatar issue that Joe mentions is a more interesting matter. If the Constitution is taken at face value and is applied strictly to the letter, then arguably by changing avatar without a note in his signature (if this indeed what happened), DWTL automatically expelled himself from the Senate (in effect, changing his avatar was an act of resignation).

DWTL may contend that he never changed his avatar without a note or he may contend that the act of not having the avatar/note is not an automatic resignation issue.

Shockingly there is a precedent on this matter: Fritz v. Boss Tweed et al., which was decided under the First Constitution. Given that it is a First Constitution decision it is not necessarily given precedental value unless the Court says it has precedental value. For those wishing a quick redux of that case:
1. Tweed, Shapeshifter and MichaelZ lacked avatars/notes in the way that DWTL allegedly did.
2. Fritz sued to strip them of their positions in the Senate.
3. There was not a formal decision of the Court in the strict sense, however, all Justices agreed that the Senators needed to offer some indication of residence and CJ Migrendel instructed Senators that they had 5 days to bring themselves into line or be stripped of post.

The options for the Senate are as follows:
1. The Senate can expel DWTL for violation of the Constitution.
2. The Senate can do nothing (or censure him, which is in effect nothing)

Ordinary citizens may:
1. Sue DWTL as soon as he tries to do something only a Senator could do arguing that he automatically resigned.
2. Do nothing.

[DownWithTheLeft]

This was not the first time I changed my avatar and no one cared before or cared when others did the same.  Other than that, unlike some, I have never actually broken any senate procedures and this is simply is a personal thing

[Peter]

I would say in your defence that, indeed, the rule has gone unenforced for years. There was an attempt to repeal the clause about a year ago, but it floundered in the ratification stage.

[DownWithTheLeft]

I would say in your defence that, indeed, the rule has gone unenforced for years. There was an attempt to repeal the clause about a year ago, but it floundered in the ratification stage.

Also it was a change that I fixed immediatley after being altered that such as a clause still existed (I assumed other senators not abiding by it meant it was no longer necessary), and caused no damage.  I am impeached for this Porce broke the rules of the senate as well and should follow me out

[Joe Republic]

Hmm, I feel a court case coming on.

[DownWithTheLeft]

Hmm, I feel a court case coming on.

It seems like the court is dormant, who wants to sue me?  Porce maybe? Hashemite has to be up there, Joe, yourself maybe?

[Јas]

He has labeled fellow Senators "stupid," "conceited," and "loony." He is generally harsh and unpleasant, particularly when defending unpopular proposals.

Not sure that I'd say 'generally', but it's certainly much more often than any other sitting Senator and from my viewpoint without just cause.

I'd also consider the issue of his proposals popularity to be irrelevant in this regard. Senators should be perfectly allowed to introduce whatever legislation they wish, within the terms of the Constitution and OSPR. Senators should however be prepared to accept criticism from others for whatever they should submit for consideration on the merits of the proposed legislation without reacting with personal attacks.

It goes without saying that the Senate should have lively discussion, and honest criticism should be directed at our fellows and the laws we debate. But when criticism becomes abuse, the level of discourse falls into the gutter. That isn't good for the Senate, and it isn't good for Atlasia.

Strongly agree.


On the issue of the avatar, I did in fact spot the avatar change by DWTL to Ind-TN, there was no nothing in his signiture relevant to the Constitutional provision.

Personally, I think the requirement is neither helpful, warranted, nor necessary. I was a strong supporter of the amendment to try and remove the clause. That said, it remains a Constitutional requirement and by my reading DWTL's inadvertent breach amounts to a constructive resignation. That, however is for the courts to decide.

It will be very interesting to see what the Supreme Court does - whatever it  decides will be hugely controversial.

[they don't love you like i love you]

x BRTD

[Hash]

Hmm, I feel a court case coming on.

It seems like the court is dormant, who wants to sue me?  Porce maybe? Hashemite has to be up there, Joe, yourself maybe?

Contrary to what you think, although I support this motion, I do not wish to testify against you in court.

[Ebowed]

The motion has four signatures, which is enough to proceed.  The Senate will now move to censure DWDL for his actions.

Censuring will serve as something of an effectless resolution; it is hoped to serve as a recommendation to the Senator to correct his conduct.

We will now vote on whether or not to censure DownWithDaLeft.


Aye

[PBrunsel]

I vote nay.

The young fellow has acted rude at some times, but all act rude at times. I myself sometimes hit the breaking point and use words like "darn" and "damn it".

In politics you must sometimes come to expect harsh langauge, and I would assume that those on a politcal forum knew that already.

The boy does need to shape up, but I see censuring him as giving him an excuse to continue acting poorly. If he is censured he will call those who voted to censure him "loony" and "crazy" and act in a way that a Senator should not act. Why give anyone ammunition to act poorly? I mean, did censuring Joe McCarthy stop him from accusing people of being Communists or drinking? Not really. He went to his grave doing both of those things.

[The Man From G.O.P.]

I vote nay.

The young fellow has acted rude at some times, but all act rude at times. I myself sometimes hit the breaking point and use words like "darn" and "damn it".

In politics you must sometimes come to expect harsh langauge, and I would assume that those on a politcal forum knew that already.

The boy does need to shape up, but I see censuring him as giving him an excuse to continue acting poorly. If he is censured he will call those who voted to censure him "loony" and "crazy" and act in a way that a Senator should not act. Why give anyone ammunition to act poorly? I mean, did censuring Joe McCarthy stop him from accusing people of being Communists or drinking? Not really. He went to his grave doing both of those things.

I am dissapointed that you agree yet voted nay


I vote Aye

[Rob]

Aye.

[SPC]

I vote nay.

The young fellow has acted rude at some times, but all act rude at times. I myself sometimes hit the breaking point and use words like "darn" and "damn it".

In politics you must sometimes come to expect harsh langauge, and I would assume that those on a politcal forum knew that already.

The boy does need to shape up, but I see censuring him as giving him an excuse to continue acting poorly. If he is censured he will call those who voted to censure him "loony" and "crazy" and act in a way that a Senator should not act. Why give anyone ammunition to act poorly? I mean, did censuring Joe McCarthy stop him from accusing people of being Communists or drinking? Not really. He went to his grave doing both of those things.

I concur.

[they don't love you like i love you]

Aye