Diplomacy Dreams

[themaninthejinnahcap]

The die is cast and which way will the winds blow...

And the metaphors are well mixed…

He's an old-fashioned guy, GM. Very allegorical.

[NOVA Green]

The die is cast and which way will the winds blow...

And the metaphors are well mixed…

He's an old-fashioned guy, GM. Very allegorical.

Hey I resent that slightly considering by my reconning GM at 10+ years of life on me, although I will turn (50) this coming Fall.

[GeorgiaModerate]

The die is cast and which way will the winds blow...

And the metaphors are well mixed…

He's an old-fashioned guy, GM. Very allegorical.

Hey I resent that slightly considering by my reconning GM at 10+ years of life on me, although I will turn (50) this coming Fall.

Much closer to 20 than 10, in fact.

[NOVA Green]

The die is cast and which way will the winds blow...

And the metaphors are well mixed…

He's an old-fashioned guy, GM. Very allegorical.

Hey I resent that slightly considering by my reconning GM at 10+ years of life on me, although I will turn (50) this coming Fall.

Much closer to 20 than 10, in fact.

Naturellement, I would have considered it rude to disclose any approximation of your age without your personal consent, but this does explain the Diplomacy Game maps you played in HS that involve not only different rules, but also even Italian provinces.

I would imagine one of those would fetch a considerable amount of $$$ on the internet these days, especially if in VG condition including the box and the map...

Would be interesting to play a retro Diplomacy with the 1st edition map and rules...

*** scratches head and attempts to consider what that might look like ***

[themaninthejinnahcap]

Alright, I don't know where IBNU is at, but I'll call a hiatus for tonight and see if he reaches out to myself or any of you guys tomorrow.

Sorry for the letdown, folks.

[NOVA Green]

While we all wait with baited breath for the GM's uploading of the Spring '03 orders, here's an old school classic country song which was effectively main stream at that time regarding something involving about how many minutes to go...

[NOVA Green]

Alright, I don't know where IBNU is at, but I'll call a hiatus for tonight and see if he reaches out to myself or any of you guys tomorrow.

Sorry for the letdown, folks.

Well you definitely run a much looser officiating style as GM than Muon2.

Although we don't want to lose a player, at some point there needs to be a natural balance between giving players a long leash when it comes to the rules of the game, versus enabling players exploiting the gap.

Not sure I totally agree with the decision to create a hiatus, and this is someone who came from the perspective to allow some additional time from (24) hours to (48) hours for military movements.

We all get it that people might have individual circumstances in their real lives that might create issues, or for all we know there might have been some weird Chinese cyberattack that happened, but we need to consider the precedent that players do not meet their deadlines as agreed upon rules now allows any of us to follow in that path.

If IBNU has a legitimate reason for their lack of a response, I might be willing to give them a "Hall Pass" this time around.

Quite frankly we should have backup player lists in the event that individuals unexpectedly "drop out" prior to declaring their intentions.

This is something I have seen previously on Atlas Diplomacy games and the reality is that when people drop out unexpectedly create massive game imbalances, and yeah none of us want to see that.

Still, it is extremely disrespectful to other players and quite frankly allows manipulation of the rules, regardless of other players time zones.

I just received a PM from the Liberal Hack a few minutes ago...

I'll accept it if he posts orders immediately and then we can all talk about the whole time zone scene, considering he is Singapore....

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

 I'm really really sorry for the timezone mishap; I meant to send my order last night and then thought to wait until today morning in-case any messages meant I had to change plans but totally messed up and missed my chance.

Promise y'all it won't happen again.

[NOVA Green]

I'm really really sorry for the timezone mishap; I meant to send my order last night and then thought to wait until today morning in-case any messages meant I had to change plans but totally messed up and missed my chance.

Promise y'all it won't happen again.

So perhaps we should all agree to follow the GM's original adjudication and allow an extension until Tomorrow, which in my humble opinion is more than reasonable considering the individual circumstances.

Also, might add that in the event that the (48) hour move limit is too restricting for those in massively different time zones, we might want to consider altering the move limit and/or shift the time zones to accommodate Diplomacy players who might be in places where Day and Night are very different than us Diplomacy game players in the USA, where after all there are very few time zone differences...

[GeorgiaModerate]

Another suggestion: as a global reference, post the deadlines in UTC as well as EST/EDT, e.g. "next deadline is 10:00pm EDT on Monday, March 18 (02:00am UTC on Tuesday, March 19)".

[themaninthejinnahcap]

Good evening all,

IBNU messaged me I think right after I had left last night and I see there's been some discussion in here. That's good, I'd like to ask for a bit more of it. Given the replacement early on of one power, I feel ambivalent about what to do. It seems almost hypocritical to kick one player and not another, but on the other hand the timezone issue is a real one that merits consideration.

I'd like to pose it to the rest of you and get your opinions. I am prepared to go either which way, and regardless of the decision I think GM's UTC timezone translation is a good idea going forward. I am also willing to extend the deadline limit for future turns as we already have changed it before, but I need to know what you guys consider excessive or not.

What say you?

[GeorgiaModerate]

In the email judges I used to play on, there was a deadline after which you were marked late, followed by a grace period.  If a player went past the grace period, the judge automatically kicked them out of the game, or if a player was late too many times without a valid excuse (like power was out for a week due to a hurricane - I saw that happen to a player once) the GM had the option to replace them.  So how about a policy like this going forward:

1. If a player is late more than 3 times (feel free to suggest other values) without a valid excuse, you should seek a replacement.

2. If a player is late more than 24 hours (feel free to suggest other values) without contacting you or this thread, you should seek a replacement.

3. You could also choose to poll the other players (privately if you wish) in the above situations to see how they feel about replacing someone.  It is always disruptive to replace a player.  But the final decision should be the GM's.

Thoughts?

[GeorgiaModerate]

In the email judges I used to play on, there was a deadline after which you were marked late, followed by a grace period.  If a player went past the grace period, the judge automatically kicked them out of the game, or if a player was late too many times without a valid excuse (like power was out for a week due to a hurricane - I saw that happen to a player once) the GM had the option to replace them.  So how about a policy like this going forward:

1. If a player is late more than 3 times (feel free to suggest other values) without a valid excuse, you should seek a replacement.

2. If a player is late more than 24 hours (feel free to suggest other values) without contacting you or this thread, you should seek a replacement.

3. You could also choose to poll the other players (privately if you wish) in the above situations to see how they feel about replacing someone.  It is always disruptive to replace a player.  But the final decision should be the GM's.

Thoughts?

Addendum: it's perfectly reasonable to request deadline extensions for sudden emergencies or known absences (I'm probably going to request one myself soon for a medical procedure), and these should be granted unless they're excessive.

[NOVA Green]

In the email judges I used to play on, there was a deadline after which you were marked late, followed by a grace period.  If a player went past the grace period, the judge automatically kicked them out of the game, or if a player was late too many times without a valid excuse (like power was out for a week due to a hurricane - I saw that happen to a player once) the GM had the option to replace them.  So how about a policy like this going forward:

1. If a player is late more than 3 times (feel free to suggest other values) without a valid excuse, you should seek a replacement.

2. If a player is late more than 24 hours (feel free to suggest other values) without contacting you or this thread, you should seek a replacement.

3. You could also choose to poll the other players (privately if you wish) in the above situations to see how they feel about replacing someone.  It is always disruptive to replace a player.  But the final decision should be the GM's.

Thoughts?

Addendum: it's perfectly reasonable to request deadline extensions for sudden emergencies or known absences (I'm probably going to request one myself soon for a medical procedure), and these should be granted unless they're excessive.

Honestly I think all of Georgia Moderate's ideas are solid, such as posting the UTC, creating mechanisms in the event that player's are consistently late in posting their moves / orders without having a significant emergency life event situation in order to prevent such behavior from becoming disruptive to the game.

Certainly in this situation it is clear this was an honest mistake, compounded by the whole time zone gap, which as I noted when I was first considering joining the game a potential issue if I was unable to  get my orders in because of my work schedule.

I had assumed the other players were on EST, but as IBNU pointed out when I posted that he is totally on a completely different time zone, which can create its own unique set of challenges for a player, especially when attempting to respond in real time to what might be potentially major game changing developments, negotiations, etc...

So 7:00 PM Pacific Time / 10:00 PM Eastern time in Singapore would be 10 AM Pacific time and 1 PM Eastern time, which understandably might create issues in terms of being able to respond to fast moving developments, considering the players one is trying to reach out to might not be available because of work schedules, etc...

Muon2's GM Diplomacy rules (If I recall correctly) was that if a player did not submit their orders in a timely fashion that would mean the country had no movement at all, and everything defaulted to a HOLD.

This in an of itself, could be problematic, since in both of my previous Atlas games we had some players who had stuff going on in their personal lives who ended up dropping out without telling anybody until after the next turn's map was posted, and it disrupted some of the game play and even potentially recruitment of new players, since effectively the lack of movement created imbalances.

But yeah... I'm sympathetic to some / all of GM's suggestions for this game, or any others you might choose to host, plus certainly I think in this particular case there shouldn't be any negative sanctions, unless we adopt a limited "grace period" policy in which case a minor strike for submitting orders an hour (or whatever it was) after posting deadline would be accrued against a finite tally or perhaps three total (Or whatever makes sense), before maybe doing the Muon2 rule which would freeze all military moves and revert to a HOLD pattern.

Personally, and as the GM will attest, I will frequently post my military orders via PM well in advance, but note that they are provisional until the posting deadline.

That way, I know for example if something were to occur on my way home from work like an accident or something like that which might prevent me from hitting the deadline, at least I have my initial orders in on time to fall back on.

I don't want to make this about any individual player, since this is not my first Atlas Diplomacy rodeo, and there are a couple other players in this current game who have also seen firsthand the impacts caused when players leave the game without posting orders, difficulties recruiting new players who might end up inheriting a messed up situation caused by lack of a "Hiatus", and quite frankly would not want to lose a committed player because of a genuine and accidental mistake.

My two cents.... or maybe call it twenty cents worth and we obviously got a bunch of other players who have not yet publicly weighed in.

[GeorgiaModerate]

I can also believe IBNU may have been thrown off by the US switching to DST last Sunday, since Singapore doesn't do DST.  These transitions can be a real hassle in international situations.  (I work with people in North America, Europe, Asia, and Australia, in countries that have mostly different (or no) DST schemes.  Keeping track of the time differences between all of us becomes quite interesting at this time of year.)

[NOVA Green]

I can also believe IBNU may have been thrown off by the US switching to DST last Sunday, since Singapore doesn't do DST.  These transitions can be a real hassle in international situations.  (I work with people in North America, Europe, Asia, and Australia, in countries that have mostly different (or no) DST schemes.  Keeping track of the time differences between all of us becomes quite interesting at this time of year.)

Good point....

Considering that in the mix, my opinion would be to simply accept the orders and move on in this particular situation without any sanctions, and allow the GM to issue policies (with player input) regarding late order posting that strikes the right balance between maintaining a level gameplaying field for all, reduces the chance of game instability caused by previous GM's automatic HOLD policy if orders are received late, does not use excessively punitive measures for what is an honest mistake possibly compounded by time zone changes, maintains a consistent player pool, but also ensures that everyone feels comfortable that we are all held to the same standards and expectations, while also simultaneously recognizing that we are simply all human and sometimes s**t happens.

[GeorgiaModerate]

I can also believe IBNU may have been thrown off by the US switching to DST last Sunday, since Singapore doesn't do DST.  These transitions can be a real hassle in international situations.  (I work with people in North America, Europe, Asia, and Australia, in countries that have mostly different (or no) DST schemes.  Keeping track of the time differences between all of us becomes quite interesting at this time of year.)

Good point....

Considering that in the mix, my opinion would be to simply accept the orders and move on in this particular situation without any sanctions, and allow the GM to issue policies (with player input) regarding late order posting that strikes the right balance between maintaining a level gameplaying field for all, reduces the chance of game instability caused by previous GM's automatic HOLD policy if orders are received late, does not use excessively punitive measures for what is an honest mistake possibly compounded by time zone changes, maintains a consistent player pool, but also ensures that everyone feels comfortable that we are all held to the same standards and expectations, while also simultaneously recognizing that we are simply all human and sometimes s**t happens.

This is possibly a record for the longest single-sentence post ever.

[NOVA Green]

I can also believe IBNU may have been thrown off by the US switching to DST last Sunday, since Singapore doesn't do DST.  These transitions can be a real hassle in international situations.  (I work with people in North America, Europe, Asia, and Australia, in countries that have mostly different (or no) DST schemes.  Keeping track of the time differences between all of us becomes quite interesting at this time of year.)

Good point....

Considering that in the mix, my opinion would be to simply accept the orders and move on in this particular situation without any sanctions, and allow the GM to issue policies (with player input) regarding late order posting that strikes the right balance between maintaining a level gameplaying field for all, reduces the chance of game instability caused by previous GM's automatic HOLD policy if orders are received late, does not use excessively punitive measures for what is an honest mistake possibly compounded by time zone changes, maintains a consistent player pool, but also ensures that everyone feels comfortable that we are all held to the same standards and expectations, while also simultaneously recognizing that we are simply all human and sometimes s**t happens.

This is possibly a record for the longest single-sentence post ever.

Simply entertainment value while we all await with baited breath at 7:10 PM Pacific Time the posting of the face of Europe after the Spring '03 campaign.

I did actually get a 780 SAT score in English you know, but alas sometimes my inner Hunter S. Thompson gonzo journalism instinct kicks in as I madly pound my keyboard without proofreading...

[themaninthejinnahcap]

I like the grace period/three strikes/24 hour late ideas that GM brought up. Obviously nobody else has offered their take on the situation yet, but suffice it to say I don't want to kick IBNU and I'll adjudicate this turn tomorrow just to give everyone else a chance to give their ideas or opinions.

When I make the adjudication tomorrow, I'll lay down which of these ideas will be rules going forward. I will also boost what NOVA said about sending his provisional orders in early, that has been the case and it is very helpful to me that he does that. That way if the worst does happen, I have some kind of legitimate orders he has issued that I can use to process the turn.

[Kuumo]

I agree with posting preliminary orders in advance when possible and second the guidelines suggested by GeorgiaModerate regarding late orders.

[NOVA Green]

I like the grace period/three strikes/24 hour late ideas that GM brought up. Obviously nobody else has offered their take on the situation yet, but suffice it to say I don't want to kick IBNU and I'll adjudicate this turn tomorrow just to give everyone else a chance to give their ideas or opinions.

When I make the adjudication tomorrow, I'll lay down which of these ideas will be rules going forward. I will also boost what NOVA said about sending his provisional orders in early, that has been the case and it is very helpful to me that he does that. That way if the worst does happen, I have some kind of legitimate orders he has issued that I can use to process the turn.

Naturally the downside of this is that it does allow additional players to negotiate beyond the "end of turn".

Still so long as moves are considered "baked in", now that all (7) players have submitted results this will allow you additional feedback from others regarding a consistent policy before you do a "rules clarification", I suspect this is something that all players will appreciate, despite the fact that I for one are really "jonesing" for another hit of Diplomacy adrenaline!

[themaninthejinnahcap]

Order Results:
   
Austria:
Austria: A Gal - Boh / Bounced with Mun (1 against 1).
Austria: F Ion C A Gre - Nap
Austria: A Rum - Ukr
Austria: A Ser - Tri
Austria: A Vie - Tyr / Bounced with Pie (1 against 1).
Austria: A War - Mos
     
England:
England: A Bel H
England: F Eng S A Bel
England: F Nth H
England: F Nwy - Nwg
England: A Yor H
     
France:
France: F Bre S A Par - Pic
France: A Gas S A Mar
France: A Mar S F Spa (SC)
France: A Par - Pic
France: F Spa (SC) S A Mar
     
Germany:
Germany: A Ber - Sil
Germany: F Den H
Germany: A Hol - Ruh
Germany: F Kie - Hol
Germany: A Mun - Boh / Bounced with Gal (1 against 1).
Germany: F Swe - Nwy
     
Italy:
Italy: F Lyo - Tys
Italy: A Pie - Tyr
Italy: A Ven S A Pie - Tyr
Italy: F Wes - Tun
     
Russia:
Russia: A Mos H / Dislodged from War (2 against 1).
Russia: F Stp (SC) H
     
Turkey:
Turkey: F Aeg C A Con - Gre
Turkey: F Bla H
Turkey: A Con - Gre / Convoy path taken: Con;Aeg;Gre.
Turkey: A Gre - Nap / Convoy path taken: Gre;Ion;Nap.
Turkey: A Sev S A War - Mos
Turkey: F Smy - Eas
     
This leads us into Spring 1903 RETREAT. Only Russia has a retreat he must make, so if he is ready to make that order within the hour I will adjudicate tonight and we can move into Fall 1903 ORDERS.

Per the rules, I assume everyone who wished to offer an opinion has done so and thus here are the changes:

1. Deadline times will be posted with a UTC translation. Please let me know if I should err in that translation at any point.

2. If a player is late for an adjudication deadline a 30 minute grace period will be given. If this occurs more than once it will result in an all-HOLD order and replacement may or may not be made per feasibility.

3. If a player is late more than 24 hours without notification in private or in-thread a hiatus and replacement will be announced.

I want to thank GM and NOVA for their input on the rules and the recommendation that players make early provisional orders, just in case something should occur last minute and they can not make the deadline. That will allow me to at least process their provisional orders, nobody gets delayed, and nobody is penalized.

[themaninthejinnahcap]

Signing out for tonight, folks. I will be back to adjudicate the retreats at 10:00 PM EST / 2:00 AM UTC on Wednesday, March 20th!

[The Mikado]

Pretty sure the only legal order I have is retreating to Livonia so I see no reason not to just post it here.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Turkey-Austria alliances are always interesting to watch unfold given the awkward way in which they divide the map, and this instance does not disappoint.