Diplomacy Dreams

[GeorgiaModerate]

For some reason I’m reminded of this:

(One of the funniest movies ever made!)

[NOVA Green]

For some reason I am reminded of this song, which I am currently listening to with my wife:

[themaninthejinnahcap]

Italy has retreated his Fleet to North Africa.

We are now in the Fall 1907 MOVE Phase. Orders are due by 10:00 PM EST / 2:00 AM UTC on Friday, April 19th (EST)/Saturday, April 20th (UTC).

[NOVA Green]

Now that we are officially entering the "Countdown" Phase of the movement, time for a musical interlude while we naturally we are all eagerly awaiting the results from the Fall 1907 Move Phase.

We get a Bob Dylan Two-Pack:

NOVA GREEN

[themaninthejinnahcap]

Order Results:
   
Austria:
Austria: A bud Holds
Austria: A mos Holds
Austria: F nap - tys
Austria: A pie Holds
Austria: A sil Supports A ber - mun
Austria: A stp - nwy / Bounced with nwg (1 against 1).
Austria: A tri Supports A ven
Austria: A ven Supports A pie
Austria: A vie Holds
     
England:
England: F edi Holds
     
France:
France: A bel Holds
France: A bur Supports A bel
France: F cly - edi / Bounced with edi (1 against 1).
France: F lyo Supports A mar - pie
France: A mar - pie / Bounced with pie (2 against 2).
France: F nth Supports A bel / Support cut by Move from Denmark.
France: F wes Supports F naf - tun
     
Germany:
Germany: A ber - mun
Germany: F den - nth / Bounced with nth (1 against 1).
Germany: F hol Supports A ruh - bel
Germany: A kie Supports F hol
Germany: F nwg - nwy / Bounced with stp (1 against 1).
Germany: A ruh - bel / Bounced with bel (2 against 2).
       
Italy:
Italy: F naf - tun / Bounced with tun (2 against 2).
       
Turkey:
Turkey: F aeg Supports F ion
Turkey: A apu Supports A rom
Turkey: F ion Supports F tun
Turkey: A rom Supports F tus
Turkey: A rum Holds
Turkey: A sev Holds
Turkey: F tun Supports F nap - tys / Support cut by Move from North Africa.
Turkey: F tus Supports F nap - tys

There are no dislodges and so the RETREAT Phase is bypassed entirely. We are now in the Fall 1907 BUILD Phase. The following must submit their orders by 10:00 PM EST / 2:00 AM UTC on Saturday, April 20th (EST)/Sunday, April 21st (UTC)

France:
Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 1.

Germany:
Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 1.

Italy:
Only one unit remains, the Fleet, which will be removed. Thank you for playing with us, Kuumo. I hope to see you again in the future!

Turkey:
Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 1.

[NOVA Green]

Sorry Kuumo,

It was fun playing with you although I entered the game after to replace France at the last minute.

Best wishes with your IRL situations, and as a player who got the Italian roll of the dice in one of my previous Atlas Diplomacy games, recognize that the "Middle Powers" such as Germany and Italy are some of the roughest to play.

I should never have given you such bad advice, which I will probably selectively quote on the Atlas Comedy Gold Mine thread (If it still exists), since it inadvertently caused the loss of what was effectively a well protected GVT in exile unless there was some sort of secret Ottoman-French Alliance.

Goodnight Sweet Prince....

Peace, Love, and Mutual Solidarity,

NOVA GREEN

[GeorgiaModerate]

Aren’t retreat and build phases 24 hours, or did we change them to 48 as well?

[GeorgiaModerate]

Sorry Kuumo,

It was fun playing with you although I entered the game after to replace France at the last minute.

Best wishes with your IRL situations, and as a player who got the Italian roll of the dice in one of my previous Atlas Diplomacy games, recognize that the "Middle Powers" such as Germany and Italy are some of the roughest to play.

I should never have given you such bad advice, which I will probably selectively quote on the Atlas Comedy Gold Mine thread (If it still exists), since it inadvertently caused the loss of what was effectively a well protected GVT in exile unless there was some sort of secret Ottoman-French Alliance.

Goodnight Sweet Prince....

Peace, Love, and Mutual Solidarity,

NOVA GREEN

Yes, it was good playing with you. I did think you might hang on for years, if not indefinitely, but I got lucky with a guess in the Spring. Thanks for playing!

[Mad Deadly Worldwide Communist Gangster Computer God]

The build phase is still 24 hours as far as I can recall.

RIP Italy. Thank you for playing, Kuumo.

[themaninthejinnahcap]

Aren’t retreat and build phases 24 hours, or did we change them to 48 as well?

Definitely 24 hours. You didn't see nothin'.

[NOVA Green]

Aren’t retreat and build phases 24 hours, or did we change them to 48 as well?

Definitely 24 hours. You didn't see nothin'.

Don't recall these were ever changed.

Sure players can change things with unanimous consent, and certainly the GM is allowed to make executive decisions in the event that rules are challenged.

Still, there are some questions regarding exactly which version of Diplomacy we are playing, since apparently there might have been a recent ruling (Which nobody protested at the time), which might have tilted the scales slightly.

Regardless, I suspect that I speak for all current players to know the exact Diplomacy rules we are playing under, so that we can potentially minimize mistaken orders on the basis of misunderstanding of the "rulebooks" versus people just making huge epic "Eff-Ups" because of not understanding the rules or major strategic mistakes.

Asking for a friend, so not just me....

[themaninthejinnahcap]

Aren’t retreat and build phases 24 hours, or did we change them to 48 as well?

Definitely 24 hours. You didn't see nothin'.

Don't recall these were ever changed.

Sure players can change things with unanimous consent, and certainly the GM is allowed to make executive decisions in the event that rules are challenged.

Still, there are some questions regarding exactly which version of Diplomacy we are playing, since apparently there might have been a recent ruling (Which nobody protested at the time), which might have tilted the scales slightly.

Regardless, I suspect that I speak for all current players to know the exact Diplomacy rules we are playing under, so that we can potentially minimize mistaken orders on the basis of misunderstanding of the "rulebooks" versus people just making huge epic "Eff-Ups" because of not understanding the rules or major strategic mistakes.

Asking for a friend, so not just me....

I am not sure what you mean. I had Scott post links on the first page of the thread indicating the map and the rules, so new players wouldn't be lost. I expect that the players have either played Diplomacy or read that ruleset. I have asked for clarification from some players in regards to orders I think involve a typo, but I have not stepped in to question players as to whether they realize they are making an enormous strategic mistake. That would be highly improper for the GM to do in a game like this.

If you have something specific that you are confused by, please just ask. I have stated numerous times that I will answer such questions.

[GeorgiaModerate]

Aren’t retreat and build phases 24 hours, or did we change them to 48 as well?

Definitely 24 hours. You didn't see nothin'.

Don't recall these were ever changed.

Sure players can change things with unanimous consent, and certainly the GM is allowed to make executive decisions in the event that rules are challenged.

Still, there are some questions regarding exactly which version of Diplomacy we are playing, since apparently there might have been a recent ruling (Which nobody protested at the time), which might have tilted the scales slightly.

Regardless, I suspect that I speak for all current players to know the exact Diplomacy rules we are playing under, so that we can potentially minimize mistaken orders on the basis of misunderstanding of the "rulebooks" versus people just making huge epic "Eff-Ups" because of not understanding the rules or major strategic mistakes.

Asking for a friend, so not just me....

I am not sure what you mean. I had Scott post links on the first page of the thread indicating the map and the rules, so new players wouldn't be lost. I expect that the players have either played Diplomacy or read that ruleset. I have asked for clarification from some players in regards to orders I think involve a typo, but I have not stepped in to question players as to whether they realize they are making an enormous strategic mistake. That would be highly improper for the GM to do in a game like this.

If you have something specific that you are confused by, please just ask. I have stated numerous times that I will answer such questions.

From some private conversation (NOVA, correct me if I'm wrong) I believe the sequence he's referring to is this set of moves from Spring 1907:

Austria: F Nap - Tys / Bounced with Lyo

France: F Lyo - Tys / Bounced with Nap
France: F Wes S F Lyo – Tys

Italy: F Tun S F Lyo - Tys / Dislodged from Tys

Turkey: F Ion S F Tys – Tun
Turkey: F Tys - Tun
Turkey: F tus Supports F nap - tys

The adjudication by jDip was correct, because:

a) Tun is dislodged 2vs1: Tys attacks Tun with support from Ion, and Tun is not supported.  This is straightforward.

b) Because Tun is dislodged, its support to any operation in the space that dislodged it (Tys) is cut.

c) As such, the French and Austrian moves to Tys bounce because it's 2vs2: Lyo-Tys with support from Wes (Tun's support was cut as noted above), vs Nap-Tys with support from Tus.

Now, if I had tried to convoy the army in Rome to Tunis (as I attempted once before), THAT would have failed because it would hit one of those obscure corners in the rules.  In a convoy situation, Tunis's support for the French attack on Tys would NOT have been cut.  As such, the French move to Tys would have succeeded (3vs2), which would have dislodged my fleet from Tys, which would have disrupted my convoy, so Tun would not have been dislodged.  The end result would have been Tun remaining in place, France's move to Tys succeeding, and my fleet in Tys destroyed because there would have been no place for it to retreat.  But I didn't try the convoy, so this is all hypothetical.

[NOVA Green]

Aren’t retreat and build phases 24 hours, or did we change them to 48 as well?

Definitely 24 hours. You didn't see nothin'.

Don't recall these were ever changed.

Sure players can change things with unanimous consent, and certainly the GM is allowed to make executive decisions in the event that rules are challenged.

Still, there are some questions regarding exactly which version of Diplomacy we are playing, since apparently there might have been a recent ruling (Which nobody protested at the time), which might have tilted the scales slightly.

Regardless, I suspect that I speak for all current players to know the exact Diplomacy rules we are playing under, so that we can potentially minimize mistaken orders on the basis of misunderstanding of the "rulebooks" versus people just making huge epic "Eff-Ups" because of not understanding the rules or major strategic mistakes.

Asking for a friend, so not just me....

I am not sure what you mean. I had Scott post links on the first page of the thread indicating the map and the rules, so new players wouldn't be lost. I expect that the players have either played Diplomacy or read that ruleset. I have asked for clarification from some players in regards to orders I think involve a typo, but I have not stepped in to question players as to whether they realize they are making an enormous strategic mistake. That would be highly improper for the GM to do in a game like this.

If you have something specific that you are confused by, please just ask. I have stated numerous times that I will answer such questions.

From some private conversation (NOVA, correct me if I'm wrong) I believe the sequence he's referring to is this set of moves from Spring 1907:

Austria: F Nap - Tys / Bounced with Lyo

France: F Lyo - Tys / Bounced with Nap
France: F Wes S F Lyo – Tys

Italy: F Tun S F Lyo - Tys / Dislodged from Tys

Turkey: F Ion S F Tys – Tun
Turkey: F Tys - Tun
Turkey: F tus Supports F nap - tys

The adjudication by jDip was correct, because:

a) Tun is dislodged 2vs1: Tys attacks Tun with support from Ion, and Tun is not supported.  This is straightforward.

b) Because Tun is dislodged, its support to any operation in the space that dislodged it (Tys) is cut.

c) As such, the French and Austrian moves to Tys bounce because it's 2vs2: Lyo-Tys with support from Wes (Tun's support was cut as noted above), vs Nap-Tys with support from Tus.

Now, if I had tried to convoy the army in Rome to Tunis (as I attempted once before), THAT would have failed because it would hit one of those obscure corners in the rules.  In a convoy situation, Tunis's support for the French attack on Tys would NOT have been cut.  As such, the French move to Tys would have succeeded (3vs2), which would have dislodged my fleet from Tys, which would have disrupted my convoy, so Tun would not have been dislodged.  The end result would have been Tun remaining in place, France's move to Tys succeeding, and my fleet in Tys destroyed because there would have been no place for it to retreat.  But I didn't try the convoy, so this is all hypothetical.

Thank you GM for clarifying what was likely a bit of misinterpretation.

I was actually thinking about an earlier convoy move into Italy or a subsequent one after that (Both of which appeared to be brilliantly executed I may add.

Apologies to our humble GM hosting, and yes if players have questions regarding a particular interpretation of the rules, likely best to do that via PM versus posting on the game thread itself.

Sorry about that...

Again thanks themaninthejinnahcap, we know you are doing this as a labor of love and not for any glamor nor glory, and I must say you have done a very good job, especially when it came to items not in "the rulebook" but also navigating issues of players entering/leaving, proposed shift to deadlines to accommodate different player's time zones, etc...

Still even with the more compressed timeline than I prefer we have not had a game hiatus due to players quietly dropping out, or in some cases extremely abruptly, as I have experienced in both of my prior Atlas Diplomacy games.

I guess my one suggestion for future games is that there needs to be a way to accommodate players in international time zones (i.e. Not North or South American), since it has been frequently frustrating being able to communicate in time to establish whatever mutual agreements or understanding, etc have been proposed by the other party.

Thanks Again our own themaninthejinnahcap for resurrecting Diplomacy on Atlas, where the main reason it stopped was because Muon2 had some various other activities he was engaged in and declined to host, although we had about (6-7) players already onboard if I recall correctly.

Frequently players who are into the game would rather play the game rather than be the Ref, Officiator, etc....

[themaninthejinnahcap]

No problem with asking questions in the thread, it might help others who have the same question!

You're very welcome for the adjudication. I like to see Diplomacy continuing in the world, especially in places where it was once played and needs a revival.

[NOVA Green]

Meanwhile while we all eagerly await the press reports for the various ensuing military builds, naturally we need to contemplate what war really means...

In another vein, here is a very little known Folk Singer from Southern Oregon, where the "Emerald Triangle" of North Coast California crosses over with the alternative movement in Southern Oregon "Hippy-Redneck" hybrid places.

Saw her live twice when I was Teenager in local venues.

Naturally all nations on Earth would likely be best served by taking all of the money spent on military armaments and instead divert them towards building and not destroying.

[themaninthejinnahcap]

Order Results:

France:
France: Builds F bre
     
Germany:
Germany: Waives build in ber
 
Italy:
Italy no longer controls any supply centers, and has been eliminated.
Italy: Removes F naf     
   
Turkey:
Turkey: Builds F con

A deadline and grace period were missed and so the Build was waived.

We are now in the Spring 1908 MOVE Phase. The deadline for orders is at 10:00 PM EST / 2:00 AM UTC on Monday, April 22nd (EST)/Tuesday, April 23rd (UTC).

[Gustaf]

Sorry guys, didn't realize we'd just skip the the retreat phase and it would be this urgent to enter the build. Had a pretty busy day yesterday and was never in front of my laptop.

I'm honestly fine dropping out if you want to find someone with more time. I've found the vibe of this game to be a bit unpleasant at times, making it significantly less enjoyable than my previous Diplomacy games. But I can still enter orders for this phase. 

[Mad Deadly Worldwide Communist Gangster Computer God]

I don't know who else would be available to substitute. It's also pretty late in the game for people to be dropping out.

Most importantly, the game is not a revolving door and I can't help but feel frustrated every time someone drops out. I know Jesse's tired as well and it is evident that people aren't reading the rules or the first pages of this thread. Commitment and deadlines matter and they should be accounted for before somebody joins a game. It's already been explained why leaving the game while you have centers in play is extremely unfair to both the game moderator and the other players.

Gustaf, you haven't been here very long and you took over for another person who called it quits. The only choices are you staying in the game and sticking to deadlines or putting the game on hiatus (again) until Germany #3 signs up, whenever that might be.

[NOVA Green]

Sorry guys, didn't realize we'd just skip the the retreat phase and it would be this urgent to enter the build. Had a pretty busy day yesterday and was never in front of my laptop.

I'm honestly fine dropping out if you want to find someone with more time. I've found the vibe of this game to be a bit unpleasant at times, making it significantly less enjoyable than my previous Diplomacy games. But I can still enter orders for this phase. 

Well I must say that I would be a bit bummed out if your dropped out, and don't believe that I speak for the Minority here.

Sure rules are rules unless overturned by a quorum decision they will remain such so long as you meet your future deadlines.

I do recognize that perhaps you might have "felt the vibe to be a bit unpleasant at times", but at the same time this game format has a different tempo than any previously Atlas Diplomacy again I have ever played.

Tensions run high, international time zones, and lack of proper communication perhaps play a role and quite frankly have been pushing for a (72) Hr. at minimum for future Atlas Diplomacy Games.

Needless to say, perhaps I might have been a bit too pushy when you first entered the game, as I suspect some of the other players remaining likely were as well, but waltzing off because of "vibes", really makes it seem like you didn't understand what you were signing up for.

I'm with Scott on this one, even though he was not a fan of extending the various deadlines to accommodate players in international time-zones.

[Gustaf]

I don't know who else would be available to substitute. It's also pretty late in the game for people to be dropping out.

Most importantly, the game is not a revolving door and I can't help but feel frustrated every time someone drops out. I know Jesse's tired as well and it is evident that people aren't reading the rules or the first pages of this thread. Commitment and deadlines matter and they should be accounted for before somebody joins a game. It's already been explained why leaving the game while you have centers in play is extremely unfair to both the game moderator and the other players.

Gustaf, you haven't been here very long and you took over for another person who called it quits. The only choices are you staying in the game and sticking to deadlines or putting the game on hiatus (again) until Germany #3 signs up, whenever that might be.

Well, maybe part of the reason people drop out is that you're an unpleasant person to play with.

I want to make clear that my complaint is not about the deadlines. I've played Diplomacy games before, including on here, and simply did not expect the atmosphere to be what it was. So I guess I didn't know what I signed up for in that sense.

I have entered orders for the next phase but it does sound like you're better off finding someone else willing to play this way. 

[Mad Deadly Worldwide Communist Gangster Computer God]

I don't know who else would be available to substitute. It's also pretty late in the game for people to be dropping out.

Most importantly, the game is not a revolving door and I can't help but feel frustrated every time someone drops out. I know Jesse's tired as well and it is evident that people aren't reading the rules or the first pages of this thread. Commitment and deadlines matter and they should be accounted for before somebody joins a game. It's already been explained why leaving the game while you have centers in play is extremely unfair to both the game moderator and the other players.

Gustaf, you haven't been here very long and you took over for another person who called it quits. The only choices are you staying in the game and sticking to deadlines or putting the game on hiatus (again) until Germany #3 signs up, whenever that might be.

Well, maybe part of the reason people drop out is that you're an unpleasant person to play with.

I want to make clear that my complaint is not about the deadlines. I've played Diplomacy games before, including on here, and simply did not expect the atmosphere to be what it was. So I guess I didn't know what I signed up for in that sense.

I have entered orders for the next phase but it does sound like you're better off finding someone else willing to play this way. 

How have I been unpleasant? I've been cordial in all my correspondences with the players, and I'm simply reemphasizing a point that's been made before in this thread when these incidents occurred as well as speaking up for my personal friend who registered on the forum specifically to host this tournament, and put in considerable time needed to do so.

I'll take the heat for that, because the OP is not in any way at fault for the "atmosphere" (not entirely sure what this refers to) of the game.

[NOVA Green]

Naturally Germany should not be punished for failure to submit build orders in a timely fashion, other than the obvious one not being allowed to build a unit until the next build phase.

The only reason I am asking is to ensure that this is not the same as longer term sanctions, such as failing to commit any move orders at all.

In fact, I believe earlier in the game I reached out to Jesse since I was thinking of not making a build during a particular build season for whatever reason and believe that it is totally legit to choose not to build if one wants to, so surely there shouldn't be any further sanctions, even if it were an accidental "lack to build", beyond the obvious of having to sit it out until the next build phase.

I should also note a "forget to build" would not normally be an excuse for not submitting one's orders in a timely fashion, and as such that decision must stand regarding of extenuating circumstances.

I will reiterate once again the unique "up-tempo" nature of this game is particularly difficult, with rapid short deadlines, especially with players in international time zones.

So basically a (24) hour build gets compressed significantly once you cross the pond.

This will not change the rules for this particular game, since thus far there are likely only 2/5 players, although we might have a 3/5 if INBU agrees, this would clearly make a majority, versus the two players in the same time zone who tend to prefer the compressed format.

It is likely too late to change horse there, but certainly for future games I would strongly emphasize a (72) hour move deadline with (48) hours for retreats / builds-disbands to accommodate players living in non Americas time zones, as well as time for players wanting to discuss diplomatic issues, military movements, etc... without being forced to rush and very little time for changes.

[GeorgiaModerate]

I’ve previously said that I’m neutral on going to 72 for movement turns, if that’s what the majority prefers. Ditto on 48 for the other phases.

[NOVA Green]

While we wait, some White Stripes "Seven Nation Army"