Opinion of Patrice Lumumba?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Joseph Kasa-Vubu and Mobutu, as opposed to Lumumba, represented the heroic faction during the 1960s Congo Crisis, and those who say otherwise are either Communists, leftists, or useful idiots for communists and leftists. The decision made by the USA, under the administration of President Bill Clinton, to betray Mobutu in the late 1990s and quietly support the Communist-backed opposition in their overthrow of Zaire was a great misdeed (one of many) in the history of the USA's foreign policy.

🤡🤡🤡

[Republican Party Stalwart]

Joseph Kasa-Vubu and Mobutu, as opposed to Lumumba, represented the heroic faction during the 1960s Congo Crisis, and those who say otherwise are either Communists, leftists, or useful idiots for communists and leftists. The decision made by the USA, under the administration of President Bill Clinton, to betray Mobutu in the late 1990s and quietly support the Communist-backed opposition in their overthrow of Zaire was a great misdeed (one of many) in the history of the USA's foreign policy.

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I'll take that as a compliment.

[Republican Party Stalwart]

He was a Communist.

Outside of his regular studies, Lumumba took an interest in the Enlightenment ideals of Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Voltaire. He was also fond of Molière and Victor Hugo. He wrote poetry, and many of his works had anti-imperialist themes.[13] He worked as a travelling beer salesman in Léopoldville and as a postal clerk in Stanleyville for eleven years.[14] Lumumba was married three times. He married Henriette Maletaua a year after arriving in Stanleyville; they divorced in 1947. In the same year, he married Hortense Sombosia, but this relationship also fell apart. He began an affair with Pauline Kie. While he had no children with his first two wives, his relationship with Kie resulted in a son, François Lumumba. Though he remained close with Kie until his death, Lumumba ultimately ended their affair to marry Pauline Opangu in 1951.[1]

There is nothing communist here. He was a liberal nationalist.

That's what Castro said, and at about the same time.

Opposing imperialism does not make you a Communist. And his school of thought was closer aligned with Mandela than Castro.

Mandela was a Communist too, quite frankly. In fact, Mandela was closer to Castro than Lumumba was to Castro, if anything.

[PSOL]

I seriously wish Lumumba and Mandiba were communists, that would have been so based to have a socialist Africa realized. Alas, they weren’t.

[Sir John Johns]

Joseph Kasa-Vubu and Mobutu, as opposed to Lumumba, represented the heroic faction during the 1960s Congo Crisis, and those who say otherwise are either Communists, leftists, or useful idiots for communists and leftists. The decision made by the USA, under the administration of President Bill Clinton, to betray Mobutu in the late 1990s and quietly support the Communist-backed opposition in their overthrow of Zaire was a great misdeed (one of many) in the history of the USA's foreign policy.

Yeah, famous communist leader Paul Kagame. You should inform our intelligence services of that fact because Mitterrand (you know a Socialist who had Communists in his government) supported the genocidal Hutu Power regime in Kigali against Kagame on the pretext that otherwise Rwanda would has fallen into the hands of ‘the Anglo-Saxons’.

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Don’t mock Mobutu, he almost turned Zaire into a space power:

[Fuzzy Bear]

He was a Communist.

Outside of his regular studies, Lumumba took an interest in the Enlightenment ideals of Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Voltaire. He was also fond of Molière and Victor Hugo. He wrote poetry, and many of his works had anti-imperialist themes.[13] He worked as a travelling beer salesman in Léopoldville and as a postal clerk in Stanleyville for eleven years.[14] Lumumba was married three times. He married Henriette Maletaua a year after arriving in Stanleyville; they divorced in 1947. In the same year, he married Hortense Sombosia, but this relationship also fell apart. He began an affair with Pauline Kie. While he had no children with his first two wives, his relationship with Kie resulted in a son, François Lumumba. Though he remained close with Kie until his death, Lumumba ultimately ended their affair to marry Pauline Opangu in 1951.[1]

There is nothing communist here. He was a liberal nationalist.

That's what Castro said, and at about the same time.

Opposing imperialism does not make you a Communist. And his school of thought was closer aligned with Mandela than Castro.

He was aligned with the Soviet Union at a time when that made a difference, and at a time when we gave support to Fidel Castro, who denied being a Communist until he had consolidated power.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/11/06/the-lumumba-plot-the-secret-history-of-the-cia-and-a-cold-war-assassination-stuart-a-reid-book-review

As Reid and many others have established, Lumumba was not a Communist; Hammarskjöld, for his part, considered Lumumba an “ignorant pawn” but too “erratic and inept” for the Soviets to find useful.

Opposing imperialism does not make you a Communist, but aligning yourself most closely with the Soviet Union opens you up to being viewed as a Sub Silentio Marxist.  Lumumba did little to convince people that he was not, at a minimum, aligned with the Soviet Union.

Mandela was the face of opposition to Aparthied; he is cloaked in unassailable virtue in part because what he was opposing was SO indefensible and immoral that it would be almost a pro-Apartheid statement to suggest that he was a "Communist" or "Marxist".

https://africasacountry.com/2023/06/mandelas-black-marxism

Spear covers the period, roughly, from the Sharpeville massacre of 1960 to the Rivonia trial of 1963-1964. It marks a critical period in the history of the anti-apartheid movement, as state repression intensifies and as the space for aboveground political opposition diminishes. It tells the story of how Mandela, alongside other activists in the ANC and Communist Party, sought to channel popular anger into organized violence against the apartheid state, and in doing so perhaps create the possibilities for revolution. This is a period of significant personal and political turbulence in Mandela’s life. He moves from the anti-communism of his ANC-Youth League days to becoming a high-ranking member of the Communist Party. He challenges the non-violent principles of then ANC-president Albert Lutuli, undergoes military training in Ethiopia, and seeks aid from the Soviet Union and China. What emerges is the complexity of Mandela’s thought, his insistence that Marxism be responsive to South African conditions, and his shrewd organizational skills.

Now the West was correct to oppose Apartheid, and even to support Mandela, a hero and a living martyr who was a political prisoner for decades.  He was the choice of the South African people to be its leader, and given the slowness of the US to get behind the drive to end Apartheid, we really don't have the right to complain about the leaders South Africa selects, or the bedfellows it chooses in making alliances.

But in saying that, we do need to honestly assess the leanings and aims of other World leaders.  Imperialism was not a good thing, but where a former colonial entity turned independent nation's leader stood with the Soviet Union in the 1960s was relevant in how close we should get to a foreign leader.  Apartheid was, and is, indefensible, and the kind of imperialism the Belgians imposed on the Congo was, to be kind, ono-sided, manifesting the Mercantile theory that a colony exists for the good of the Mother Country.  But there are limits as to how closely we can (and should) work with any leaders that declare themselves to be Marxists, or whom we know as sub-silentio Marxists.  That's something OUR leaders owe to OUR citizens.

[Devout Centrist]

I need the most batsh**t insane Congolese take you’ve got

Joseph Kasa-Vubu and Mobutu, as opposed to Lumumba, represented the heroic faction during the 1960s Congo Crisis, and those who say otherwise are either Communists, leftists, or useful idiots for communists and leftists. The decision made by the USA, under the administration of President Bill Clinton, to betray Mobutu in the late 1990s and quietly support the Communist-backed opposition in their overthrow of Zaire was a great misdeed (one of many) in the history of the USA's foreign policy.

No, that’s too insane.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Too idealistic for his own good, still a FF.

Hammarskjöld’s death later that same year was also very sus.

[Sol]

Joseph Kasa-Vubu and Mobutu, as opposed to Lumumba, represented the heroic faction during the 1960s Congo Crisis, and those who say otherwise are either Communists, leftists, or useful idiots for communists and leftists. The decision made by the USA, under the administration of President Bill Clinton, to betray Mobutu in the late 1990s and quietly support the Communist-backed opposition in their overthrow of Zaire was a great misdeed (one of many) in the history of the USA's foreign policy.

interesting perspective, learned a lot today

[Vosem]

HP (R). He was a communist. Fuzzy is completely correct here.

Joseph Kasa-Vubu and Mobutu, as opposed to Lumumba, represented the heroic faction during the 1960s Congo Crisis, and those who say otherwise are either Communists, leftists, or useful idiots for communists and leftists. The decision made by the USA, under the administration of President Bill Clinton, to betray Mobutu in the late 1990s and quietly support the Communist-backed opposition in their overthrow of Zaire was a great misdeed (one of many) in the history of the USA's foreign policy.

No, Mobutu arming the Interahamwe forces who wanted to restore MRND government was not forgivable. The Rwandan invasion was completely justified, as Rwandan intervention in the DRC basically remains in 2024.

[Sol]

HP (R). He was a communist. Fuzzy is completely correct here.

Joseph Kasa-Vubu and Mobutu, as opposed to Lumumba, represented the heroic faction during the 1960s Congo Crisis, and those who say otherwise are either Communists, leftists, or useful idiots for communists and leftists. The decision made by the USA, under the administration of President Bill Clinton, to betray Mobutu in the late 1990s and quietly support the Communist-backed opposition in their overthrow of Zaire was a great misdeed (one of many) in the history of the USA's foreign policy.

No, Mobutu arming the Interahamwe forces who wanted to restore MRND government was not forgivable. The Rwandan invasion was completely justified, as Rwandan intervention in the DRC basically remains in 2024.

I'm curious to hear your argument on this, as this seems quite difficult to justify!

[All Along The Watchtower]

Getting “he kinda asked for it by being pro-Soviet/Commie” vibes from a few posts in this thread, not gonna lie.

[Republican Party Stalwart]

Getting “he kinda asked for it by being pro-Soviet/Commie” vibes from a few posts in this thread, not gonna lie.

Yes. I don't deny holding that sentiment.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Everything about him screams that he would have been part of the Non Aligned Movement rather than become a Soviet pawn.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Getting “he kinda asked for it by being pro-Soviet/Commie” vibes from a few posts in this thread, not gonna lie.

Yes. I don't deny holding that sentiment.

Blue Avatar Moment

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Getting “he kinda asked for it by being pro-Soviet/Commie” vibes from a few posts in this thread, not gonna lie.

Yes. I don't deny holding that sentiment.

Blue Avatar Moment

Yes, this is what Republicans believe. In fact it is probably one of the most consistently held beliefs across the GOP: regardless of whether you are hawkish or dovish, center right or right, Trumpian or not, it is agreed that communism is an evil ideology, and that those who try to spread are themselves evil.

[FT-02 Senator A.F.E. 🇵🇸🤝🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦]

It doesn't f-ing matter what a whole bunch of freaks in Washington sh**tting their pants over "mUh cOmMiEs!!1!!" want. What matters is who the PEOPLE of Zaire wanted to lead them. If they wanted an alleged communist to lead them, so be it. It is THEIR decision to make, not OURS. And then you people have the audacity to ask why the Third World has such a low opinion of us.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

It doesn't f-ing matter what a whole bunch of freaks in Washington sh**tting their pants over "mUh cOmMiEs!!1!!" want. What matters is who the PEOPLE of Zaire wanted to lead them. If they wanted an alleged communist to lead them, so be it. It is THEIR decision to make, not OURS. And then you people have the audacity to ask why the Third World has such a low opinion of us.

Actually, most Africans like the US.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/01/08/u-s-image-generally-favorable-around-the-world-but-mixed-in-some-countries/

Nigeria: 62-23
Kenya: 60-19
South Africa: 50-33

[Libertas Vel Mors]

It doesn't f-ing matter what a whole bunch of freaks in Washington sh**tting their pants over "mUh cOmMiEs!!1!!" want. What matters is who the PEOPLE of Zaire wanted to lead them. If they wanted an alleged communist to lead them, so be it. It is THEIR decision to make, not OURS. And then you people have the audacity to ask why the Third World has such a low opinion of us.

Also, there is no right to elect a communist. Communism is an inversion of the core purposes of government, so even if 80% or 90% of the population support a communist leader, let alone a much smaller %, that 20% or 10% is justified in resisting it to the hilt. Lumumba's party proper got just 23% of the vote, so it was good of the US to back the other 77% (less when considering coalitions) in protecting themselves.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

It doesn't f-ing matter what a whole bunch of freaks in Washington sh**tting their pants over "mUh cOmMiEs!!1!!" want. What matters is who the PEOPLE of Zaire wanted to lead them. If they wanted an alleged communist to lead them, so be it. It is THEIR decision to make, not OURS. And then you people have the audacity to ask why the Third World has such a low opinion of us.

Also, there is no right to elect a communist. Communism is an inversion of the core purposes of government, so even if 80% or 90% of the population support a communist leader, let alone a much smaller %, that 20% or 10% is justified in resisting it to the hilt. Lumumba's party proper got just 23% of the vote, so it was good of the US to back the other 77% (less when considering coalitions) in protecting themselves.

Says who? When was it decided that some snot-nosed American kid has the right to dictate who other countries vote for?

[OSR stands with Israel]

It doesn't f-ing matter what a whole bunch of freaks in Washington sh**tting their pants over "mUh cOmMiEs!!1!!" want. What matters is who the PEOPLE of Zaire wanted to lead them. If they wanted an alleged communist to lead them, so be it. It is THEIR decision to make, not OURS. And then you people have the audacity to ask why the Third World has such a low opinion of us.

Communists don’t have any right to implement their policies though. The right to own individual property is a fundamental right that a majority do not have a right to take away .

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I'm not sure if this discussion has much to do with the Congo Crisis, which was a real event and a huge disaster.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

I'm not sure if this discussion has much to do with the Congo Crisis, which was a real event and a huge disaster.

That should lower our opinions of Lumumba though, because if he had less competently led the communists then they never would have gained power and there would have been no Congo Crisis.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I'm not sure if this discussion has much to do with the Congo Crisis, which was a real event and a huge disaster.

That should lower our opinions of Lumumba though, because if he had less competently led the communists then they never would have gained power and there would have been no Congo Crisis.

I'm lost. What exactly do you think the Congo Crisis was, when do you think it started and why do you think it occurred? And who were 'the communists' in this situation? Gizenga? Be serious. Cold War geopolitics only entered the equation at all once the cat was out of the bag and destroying all the furniture, while the major outside power involved in the whole dismal affair (and the people who had Lumumba, fool that he was, killed in the end) was - and for very obvious reasons - Belgium.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

A good man who got in badly over his head.  He deserves to be remembered and respected.