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| | |-+  President and Vice President from the same state?
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Author Topic: President and Vice President from the same state?  (Read 4159 times)
Jacobtm
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« on: June 21, 2007, 12:40:47 am »
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I remember learning, and had in common conversation had it upheld, that the President and the Vice President must be from different states. However, when reading the constitution, it only prohibits the electors from a particular state to vote for a President and Vice President from their own state. So if the Presidential and Vice Presidential nominee of the Republicans are from Tennessee, that would only mean that the electors from Tennessee couldn't vote for that ticket, but that the electors of any other state would be free to do so.

At least, that's what it seems to me. Am I correct?

Here's the exact text of the 12th ammendment, which superseded the original section dealing with selecting the President and Vice President:

"The Electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves..."
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 12:44:12 am by Jacobtm »Logged

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Ernest
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« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2007, 12:55:42 am »

Yes that's correct.  It's a remnant of the minimal change fix they put in place after the 1800 election.  Prior to that, each elector voted for two people to be President and they were required to name at least one person not from their state.

In the 1792 election, Kentucky's 4 EV's went to Washington and Jefferson, both of Virginia.

Note that under our current system it is conceivable that a candidate could win election as both President and Vice President since the rule does not require that an elector place different names as President and Vice President, if he doesn't live in the same state.   That happened in 2004 when a Minnesota elector chose to vote for John Edwards for both President and Vice President.
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« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2007, 01:59:43 am »
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We should repeal the 12th Amendment.
Could you imagine Bill Clinton with George HW Bush or Bob Dole as VP or G.W. Bush with Al Gore or John Kerry as VP?
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jimrtex
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« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2007, 02:27:04 pm »
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We should repeal the 12th Amendment.
Could you imagine Bill Clinton with George HW Bush or Bob Dole as VP or G.W. Bush with Al Gore or John Kerry as VP?
If we do go to a popular vote, we could let people vote for two individuals.  There is little risk of tie.
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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2007, 07:21:31 pm »
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Actually, I would like to see people vote for individual Electors, instead of blocks of Electors. Each Elector would then cast a vote for two Presidential Candidates, the one receiving a Majority being elected President, the candidate receiving the second most, becomes the Vice President.
Basically, how things were before the 12th Amendment.
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Ernest
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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2007, 10:52:46 pm »

Actually, I would like to see people vote for individual Electors, instead of blocks of Electors. Each Elector would then cast a vote for two Presidential Candidates, the one receiving a Majority being elected President, the candidate receiving the second most, becomes the Vice President.
Basically, how things were before the 12th Amendment.
Actually, I think there's a case to be made under the one-man one-vote set of cases that electors, if elected by the people instead of selected by the legislature without a popular vote, would have to come from single member districts.  No one's chosen to do that, but I think they'd have an excellent chance of doing so.
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Lewis Trondheim
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« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2007, 06:27:11 am »
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Note that under our current system it is conceivable that a candidate could win election as both President and Vice President since the rule does not require that an elector place different names as President and Vice President, if he doesn't live in the same state.   That happened in 2004 when a Minnesota elector chose to vote for John Edwards for both President and Vice President.
I consider that interpretation to be faulty, and the decision to count that guy's votes to be false.
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« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2007, 08:56:02 am »
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So what would happen if Bloomberg/Giuliani were to win NY?
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Jacobtm
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« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2007, 10:29:37 pm »
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So what would happen if Bloomberg/Giuliani were to win NY?
Bloomberg isn't a Republican anymore, so you can count out any chance of those two being on a ticket together.

But hypothetically, the electors from NY would be prohibited to vote for a President and Vice President from NY.
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Why do so many people here cheer on war crimes?
Israel and the United States "killing dozens of civilians with explosives", as you phrase it, has, throughout history, almost always been a good thing.
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« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2007, 01:07:02 am »
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So what would happen if Bloomberg/Giuliani were to win NY?
Bloomberg isn't a Republican anymore, so you can count out any chance of those two being on a ticket together.

But hypothetically, the electors from NY would be prohibited to vote for a President and Vice President from NY.
One of the two could call another State "home"
ie Dick Chaney goes to Wyoming
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Lewis Trondheim
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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2007, 07:46:53 am »
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So what would happen if Bloomberg/Giuliani were to win NY?
Bloomberg isn't a Republican anymore, so you can count out any chance of those two being on a ticket together.

But hypothetically, the electors from NY would be prohibited to vote for a President and Vice President from NY.
One of the two could call another State "home"
ie Dick Chaney goes to Wyoming
...and they would. However, they'd have to do that before the election.

The NY electors, in your scenario, would just vote for some counting candidate for VP. Which gets interesting if that means Bloomberg's election goes to the Senate.
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« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2007, 10:41:50 am »
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Let's say the race is Clinton vs. Romney vs. Bloomberg, and no one wins a majority in the electoral college.  However, Romney's VP is Giuliani.

The election goes to the House and either Clinton or Bloomberg wins.

Then, Giuliani somehow wins the Senate election.  Is that a circumstance where a VP and Pres could be from the same state?
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« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2007, 12:07:20 pm »
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Let's say the race is Clinton vs. Romney vs. Bloomberg, and no one wins a majority in the electoral college.  However, Romney's VP is Giuliani.

The election goes to the House and either Clinton or Bloomberg wins.

Then, Giuliani somehow wins the Senate election.  Is that a circumstance where a VP and Pres could be from the same state?
Absolutely.
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jimrtex
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« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2007, 02:15:24 am »
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Actually, I think there's a case to be made under the one-man one-vote set of cases that electors, if elected by the people instead of selected by the legislature without a popular vote, would have to come from single member districts.  No one's chosen to do that, but I think they'd have an excellent chance of doing so.
At-large and multi-member elections are not inherently in violation of the one-man, one-vote decisions.
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Ernest
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« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2007, 03:36:16 pm »

Actually, I think there's a case to be made under the one-man one-vote set of cases that electors, if elected by the people instead of selected by the legislature without a popular vote, would have to come from single member districts.  No one's chosen to do that, but I think they'd have an excellent chance of doing so.
At-large and multi-member elections are not inherently in violation of the one-man, one-vote decisions.
They can be if they've been found to limit election of minority electors, the same as has been done for other at-large election schemes for all sorts of offices.
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« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2007, 11:12:28 am »
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So what would happen if Bloomberg/Giuliani were to win NY?
Bloomberg isn't a Republican anymore, so you can count out any chance of those two being on a ticket together.

But hypothetically, the electors from NY would be prohibited to vote for a President and Vice President from NY.
One of the two could call another State "home"
ie Dick Chaney goes to Wyoming
...and they would. However, they'd have to do that before the election.

The NY electors, in your scenario, would just vote for some counting candidate for VP. Which gets interesting if that means Bloomberg's election goes to the Senate.

Actually half of the electors could vote for Guiliani and someone else and the other half could vote for Bloomberg and someone else; even if the election is close, this might be sufficient to get both of them to 270 electoral votes. If this would result in neither getting to 270, however, then they'd need to vote for the Presidential nominee to at least ensure his election, and take their chances in the Senate with the VP race.

But yeah, actually they'd just make sure that the VP candidate took up legal residency in New Jersey or some such.
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