America is falling apart

[Burke Bro]

I can’t stand Trump. How could someone so self centered and ok with destroying norms that were created over the span of hundreds of years be chosen by the party of Lincoln, the party that (in my view) best represented the spirit of the founding fathers of the United States? How could someone so facetiously claim to represent the founders intents while also calling for the president to assume total control over an already enormous executive branch, giving him the same dictator-like authority that the founders would have so strongly opposed? How could someone so effortlessly lie about an election being stolen, and then encourage his supporters to attack the Capitol building (and then get away with it).

Americans take for granted their system of government. Democracy is a historical aberration, not the historical norm. Not only is a strong constitution needed to keep a democracy strong, but a willingness on the part of its people to respect norms and to respect people who disagree with them as well-meaning.

Demagogues are not new to American history, but the willingness for large numbers of Americans to accept them if it means accomplishing partisan objectives is new. Demagogues are documented as far back as Ancient Greece. They are often a death blow to democracy, not only because they themselves disregard laws and norms, but also because they provoke a strong backlash from those who oppose them (who often will disregard those things to try to stop them).

I worry that America is approaching a crisis that could end American democracy as we know it. Because Trump has now completely taken over the Republican party and January 6 was not condemned by the Republican Party, violence is on the edge of becoming a legitimate form of political expression. If Trump wins, I worry that people on the left will initiate demonstrations against the incoming administration and random uncoordinated attacks will happen, emboldening Trump to consolidate enormous levels of presidential power in the name of ensuring “security”. If Biden wins, I worry that Trump’s refusal to concede again, the better organizational capabilities of right wing protestors and the growth of right wing militias will manifest in an all out civil war.

The country I love is falling apart. It’s both torn my family apart, and torn me apart inside. As a small government conservative, but more importantly, a proud American and believer in the promise of the United States of America, I have never felt more helpless and disappointed in my country.

[DaleCooper]

America deserves to fall apart. Go outside, talk to a few of these morons we call "Americans" and then tell me with a straight face that these entitled brats deserve to live in stable, comfortable nation.

[OSR stands with Israel]

America deserves to fall apart. Go outside, talk to a few of these morons we call "Americans" and then tell me with a straight face that these entitled brats deserve to live in stable, comfortable nation.

Yes they do

[heatcharger]

America deserves to fall apart. Go outside, talk to a few of these morons we call "Americans" and then tell me with a straight face that these entitled brats deserve to live in stable, comfortable nation.

By the way, this is why you’ll never win. You have a deep hatred for your neighbors and they know it.

If Joe Biden was right about anything, it’s that America is an idea. It’s better than all the other ideas that have been tried.

If Barack Obama was right about anything, it’s that America is a resilient nation. We will survive because this is a country where people still want to be the best in the world.

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

America deserves to fall apart. Go outside, talk to a few of these morons we call "Americans" and then tell me with a straight face that these entitled brats deserve to live in stable, comfortable nation.

Yeah, good, okay

[Alcibiades]

I saw that this thread had been created by someone with a username beginning ‘Suburb’, which, when put together with the title, made me think for one beautiful moment that bronz was back.

[Upper Canada Tory]

I think the US will be fine. All countries go through difficult periods and recover from them, including the US, which has experienced civil wars and depressions. Trumpism is a temporary phenomenon that will largely dissipate from American politics when clearer heads prevail. Trump and his enablers may have a strong degree of hubris now, but history will judge them harshly.

I kind of feel the same way about Canada in the sense that the country is not doing well and appears to be on the verge of decline, but most of Canada's issues right now (or maybe not so much the issues themselves, but at least the crisis level of intensity of those issues) are outgrowths of Trudeau's third term, so I'm hoping they will be fixed by the next government.


Anyway, I wish for better days for both our countries.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Honestly it seems like society in general all across the globe is falling apart . This is a scary prospect because the last time this happened was 1914-1945.

People across the west in 1900 also thought stuff like war would be thing of the past due to “how interconnected the world had become , people have far more to lose due to dramatic increases of standard of living , rise of democracy” etc and we saw what happened. Hopefully we learn the lessons fast so we don’t repeat that dark period in human history

[Upper Canada Tory]

America deserves to fall apart. Go outside, talk to a few of these morons we call "Americans" and then tell me with a straight face that these entitled brats deserve to live in stable, comfortable nation.

As a Canadian, Americans are pretty based. Cope harder.

[Benjamin Frank 2.0]

Honestly it seems like society in general all across the globe is falling apart . This is a scary prospect because the last time this happened was 1914-1945.

People across the west in 1900 also thought stuff like war would be thing of the past due to “how interconnected the world had become , people have far more to lose due to dramatic increases of standard of living , rise of democracy” etc and we saw what happened. Hopefully we learn the lessons fast so we don’t repeat that dark period in human history

The globe also seemed like it was falling apart from around 1966 to ?. Look at the revolutions and attempted revolutions in 1968. Vietnam, dictators in the new African and Asian nations, inflation, OPEC...

As the (meh) song goes, 'we didn't start the fire.'

[Upper Canada Tory]

Honestly it seems like society in general all across the globe is falling apart . This is a scary prospect because the last time this happened was 1914-1945.

People across the west in 1900 also thought stuff like war would be thing of the past due to “how interconnected the world had become , people have far more to lose due to dramatic increases of standard of living , rise of democracy” etc and we saw what happened. Hopefully we learn the lessons fast so we don’t repeat that dark period in human history

The globe also seemed like it was falling apart from around 1966 to ?. Look at the revolutions and attempted revolutions in 1968. Vietnam, dictators in the new African and Asian nations, inflation, OPEC...

As the (meh) song goes, 'we didn't start the fire.'

I would argue this would be more accurate throughout the 1970s, about 1973 to 1980-ish. It had a lot of the same issues as today, global inflation (of course with 1970s inflation being much worse), sluggish economies, wars around the world (eg, Yom Kippur war, Soviet invasion of Afghanistan), and many issues that we are not currently dealing with like oil embargos from Arab countries. Politics also took a very populist and/or protectionist bent at the time, Nixon's economic, trade and foreign policies were very similar to Trump's, and a Trudeau was in power in both decades in Canada. It's not a direct analogy but you could make some parallels between the 2020s and the 1970s.

[DaleCooper]

Maybe I went a little too far, but I'm frustrated because America has no reason to be falling apart. Young people aren't getting drafted for an unjust war, people aren't pushing around carts full of worthless currency unable to afford bread. The nation is falling apart because people are believing stupid sh-t on the internet. It's not very compelling in my opinion.

[Burke Bro]

Maybe I went a little too far, but I'm frustrated because America has no reason to be falling apart. Young people aren't getting drafted for an unjust war, people aren't pushing around carts full of worthless currency unable to afford bread. The nation is falling apart because people are believing stupid sh-t on the internet. It's not very compelling in my opinion.

America is falling apart because we have no idea who we are anymore. We have no common enemy like the Soviet Union to define ourselves in opposition to. Big banks and corporations and the government can't be used an excuse when the economy tanks because the economy has been great for the last few decades. We have no common system of values because Christianity has fallen out of favor among a significant percentage of the population. We're formed our own identities, and decided to make enemies amongst each other. Is that stupidity, or just a natural human inclination to find belonging?

[Burke Bro]

If I have one nice thing to say about Trump, let it be this: He's a visionary. He knows that Americans long to redefine themselves in the 21st century. Opposition to immigration, support for protectionism, opposition to China, and isolationism are among the issues that unite people across the political spectrum (much to the dislike of the ruling class) and can bring about a new Americana unity. In another world he may very well have been among the likes of other great presidents. But in our world, he's a paranoid, self centered bully who has a parasocial relationship with his supporters (not unlike a lot of celebrities and social media influencers today). He craves from them the validation he never got from his parents, and in return, they expect him “win” at all costs, with democracy as collateral.

To my fellow republicans: I understand you. I understand what the vision is about. But Trumps  character flaws, which we often dismiss, are serious. There is a Republican Party without Trump that can include that vision. And one that wins on the merits of those ideas. But we have to be willing to move to past Trump. Otherwise, we won’t have a country where that vision can be possible.

[Damocles]

Honestly it seems like society in general all across the globe is falling apart . This is a scary prospect because the last time this happened was 1914-1945.

People across the west in 1900 also thought stuff like war would be thing of the past due to “how interconnected the world had become , people have far more to lose due to dramatic increases of standard of living , rise of democracy” etc and we saw what happened. Hopefully we learn the lessons fast so we don’t repeat that dark period in human history

Turning once again to the question of the invasion, I would observe that there has never been a period, in all these long centuries of which we boast, when an absolute guarantee against invasion could have been given to our people.

But I have myself, full confidence, that if all do their duty, if nothing is neglected - and the best arrangements are made, as they are being made - we shall prove ourselves once more able to defend our Island Home! To ride out the storm of war, and to outlive the menace of tyranny - if necessary, for years, if necessary, alone.

At any rate, that is what we are going to try to do. That is the resolve of His Majesty's Government, every man of them. That is the will of Parliament, and the Nation!

The British Empire and the French Republic, linked together in their cause and in their need, will defend to the death, their native soil - aiding each other like good comrades, to the utmost of their strength!

Even though large tracts of Europe, and many old and famous states have fallen, or may fall, into the grip of the Gestapo, and all the odious apparatus of the Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end!

We shall fight in France.

We shall fight on the seas and oceans.

We shall fight with growing confidence, and growing strength in the air!

We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be!

We shall fight on the beaches.

We shall fight on the landing grounds.

We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets.

We shall fight in the hills.

We shall never surrender!

And if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island, or large parts of it, were subjugated and starving - then our Empire, beyond the seas, armed, and guarded by the British Fleet - would carry on the struggle! Until in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the Old!

[Horus]

We will be okay.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Trump is a symptom and not the disease.

[Benjamin Frank 2.0]

There was a similar discussion to this on politicalwire.com

Damon Linker (New York Times): “The examples are almost too numerous to list: a disastrous war in Iraq; a ruinous financial crisis followed by a decade of anemic growth when most of the new wealth went to those who were already well off; a shambolic response to the deadliest pandemic in a century; a humiliating withdrawal from Afghanistan; rising prices and interest rates; skyrocketing levels of public and private debt; surging rates of homelessness and the spread of tent encampments in American cities; undocumented migrants streaming over the southern border; spiking rates of gun violence, mental illness, depression, addiction, suicide, chronic illness and obesity, coupled with a decline in life expectancy.”

“That’s an awful lot of failure over the past 20-odd years. Yet for the most part, the people who run our institutions have done very little to acknowledge or take responsibility for any of it, let alone undertake reforms that aim to fix what’s broken.”

One reply:
better balance
4 days ago
Not on the list:
- An amazingly strong economy which has once again taken the lead globally as the healthiest of any. This is a big shift away from the fears of only a few years ago that China would overtake the US in world economics.
- Middle class wages are rising, and beating inflation. People are entering the work force instead of retiring from it.
- The country survived the pandemic with flying colors (compared to other Western countries) except for the increased partisanship and the potential future public health challenges that will come down the road as a result.
- Daily life is far more convenient since the pandemic. Delivery is so easy. As are returns. Shipping used to be a huge expense. Now it's easy to get free shipping on most things. Restaurants deliver meals. Super markets deliver groceries. Amazon delivers anything. If you are a senior, this is especially fantastic.
- Many people can now work effectively from wherever they want to. No longer are many workers tied to the location of their office.

- The worst thing that has happened in my opinion is the change in mental acuity that has taken place in our country where so many millions are swayed by a cruel and selfish grifter. It is a serious shift that will have to be dealt with.

And another
Jkwisc
4 days ago
I take issue with a good amount of this.

Gun violence- I grew up in the 90s. Crime rates were quite high compared to right now. Course, that is not how the perception tracks. For the most part, it is the highest ever so people need to bolt their windows, lock their doors and (obviously) activate the death robots (brought to you by the good people at Rick and Morty).

Humiliating withdrawal from Afghanistan- I will grant that the withdrawal was not pleasant; however, it was also quite foreseeable. Afghanistan has a history of quagmires; it held its reputation.

Shambolic response to Covid- It was shambolic; the question is why. It is hard to think of a worse leader than Donald Trump being at the helm of the US. You can basically pinpoint the issues here to very specific media sources and one specific party. These problems persist and are extending further, mostly in conservative states.

There has been a lot of failure over the last 20 years. What's interesting is that it is primarily due to one political group that jumped the shark.


Of course, I disagree that America got through Covid 'with flying colors.' But people who track these things have noted that the media is increasingly negative to the point that even good news stories are barely even reported on (like the new class of RNA vaccines, or that the curve of worldwide greenhouse gas emissions is bending downwards.)

By some measures, the situation is deteriorating; a recent study found that the “proportion of headlines denoting anger, fear, disgust and sadness” grew markedly in the US between 2000 and 2019.
https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/23596969/bad-news-negativity-bias-media

[Red Velvet]

America AS YOU KNOW IT is falling apart, you mean. I seriously cringe whenever people react to societal transformations as some kind of apocalypse; death or something.

These transformations aren’t specific to USA, are happening in multiple places and they are normal. Things always change, they have been since the beginning of mankind and everyone wouldn’t be here today if these transformations didn’t happen.

Sometimes these transformations are good and sometimes they’re bad, which are still valuable in showing a better path for society by forcing humans to create new and more sophisticated instruments to counter whatever stimulates or guarantees the negative developments. You only really know how to fight problems when you have to deal with them in your flesh and making mistakes are a normal part of growing up.

[Benjamin Frank 2.0]

If I have one nice thing to say about Trump, let it be this: He's a visionary. He knows that Americans long to redefine themselves in the 21st century. Opposition to immigration, support for protectionism, opposition to China, and isolationism are among the issues that unite people across the political spectrum (much to the dislike of the ruling class) and can bring about a new Americana unity. In another world he may very well have been among the likes of other great presidents. But in our world, he's a paranoid, self centered bully who has a parasocial relationship with his supporters (not unlike a lot of celebrities and social media influencers today). He craves from them the validation he never got from his parents, and in return, they expect him “win” at all costs, with democracy as collateral.

To my fellow republicans: I understand you. I understand what the vision is about. But Trumps  character flaws, which we often dismiss, are serious. There is a Republican Party without Trump that can include that vision. And one that wins on the merits of those ideas. But we have to be willing to move to past Trump. Otherwise, we won’t have a country where that vision can be possible.

You can support whatever positions you like as long as you are willing to accept the negative consequences that come with those choices. Opposition to immigration and support for protectionism mean higher prices and possible labor shortages. Given the complaints over the level of inflation the last few years, do you really support the higher prices that would be the result of protectionism.

I was going to make a comment on supporting isolation, but I'd rather simply ask you, how can you both oppose China and be an isolationist?

[Storr]

We will be okay.

Honestly this. If you actually ask any random American, they'll probably have some things they feel are wrong with the country. But no one except those who are way too plugged into politics feel the country is "falling apart".

[President Johnson]

America certainly has its problems, especially the deep divisions between the two major political groups that causes political dysfunction, but it's certainly not "falling apart". It's still the greatest economic and military power with robust alliances across the globe.

[Burke Bro]

If I have one nice thing to say about Trump, let it be this: He's a visionary. He knows that Americans long to redefine themselves in the 21st century. Opposition to immigration, support for protectionism, opposition to China, and isolationism are among the issues that unite people across the political spectrum (much to the dislike of the ruling class) and can bring about a new Americana unity. In another world he may very well have been among the likes of other great presidents. But in our world, he's a paranoid, self centered bully who has a parasocial relationship with his supporters (not unlike a lot of celebrities and social media influencers today). He craves from them the validation he never got from his parents, and in return, they expect him “win” at all costs, with democracy as collateral.

To my fellow republicans: I understand you. I understand what the vision is about. But Trumps  character flaws, which we often dismiss, are serious. There is a Republican Party without Trump that can include that vision. And one that wins on the merits of those ideas. But we have to be willing to move to past Trump. Otherwise, we won’t have a country where that vision can be possible.

You can support whatever positions you like as long as you are willing to accept the negative consequences that come with those choices. Opposition to immigration and support for protectionism mean higher prices and possible labor shortages. Given the complaints over the level of inflation the last few years, do you really support the higher prices that would be the result of protectionism.

I was going to make a comment on supporting isolation, but I'd rather simply ask you, how can you both oppose China and be an isolationist?

You’re kind of missing the point of the post. It’s not that I support these things- it’s that a majority of Americans do. Personally, I’ve always been a strong believer in free trade and an active role for America in world affairs. But even I can acknowledge that Donald Trump does a good job of “reading the room.” That’s why he got elected in 2016, and why he’s probably going to beat Biden in 2024.

[Benjamin Frank 2.0]

If I have one nice thing to say about Trump, let it be this: He's a visionary. He knows that Americans long to redefine themselves in the 21st century. Opposition to immigration, support for protectionism, opposition to China, and isolationism are among the issues that unite people across the political spectrum (much to the dislike of the ruling class) and can bring about a new Americana unity. In another world he may very well have been among the likes of other great presidents. But in our world, he's a paranoid, self centered bully who has a parasocial relationship with his supporters (not unlike a lot of celebrities and social media influencers today). He craves from them the validation he never got from his parents, and in return, they expect him “win” at all costs, with democracy as collateral.

To my fellow republicans: I understand you. I understand what the vision is about. But Trumps  character flaws, which we often dismiss, are serious. There is a Republican Party without Trump that can include that vision. And one that wins on the merits of those ideas. But we have to be willing to move to past Trump. Otherwise, we won’t have a country where that vision can be possible.

You can support whatever positions you like as long as you are willing to accept the negative consequences that come with those choices. Opposition to immigration and support for protectionism mean higher prices and possible labor shortages. Given the complaints over the level of inflation the last few years, do you really support the higher prices that would be the result of protectionism.

I was going to make a comment on supporting isolation, but I'd rather simply ask you, how can you both oppose China and be an isolationist?

You’re kind of missing the point of the post. It’s not that I support these things- it’s that a majority of Americans do. Personally, I’ve always been a strong believer in free trade and an active role for America in world affairs. But even I can acknowledge that Donald Trump does a good job of “reading the room.” That’s why he got elected in 2016, and why he’s probably going to beat Biden in 2024.

Do they? People say they support a lot of things that conflict with other things that they also say they support. I have no idea what a majority of Americans actually believe in here.

Supporting isolationism at the same time as opposing China is an example of conflicting views.

[Burke Bro]

Do they? People say they support a lot of things that conflict with other things that they also say they support. I have no idea what a majority of Americans actually believe in here.

Supporting isolationism at the same time as opposing China is an example of conflicting views.

If you take into account voters who have no college education and low social trust, and therefore who generally don’t vote (aside from in presidential elections sometimes) yes, that’s the working theory. Evangelicals are an exception in this group because the culture war gives them a moral impetus to vote and the associations with prophecy give them a reason to support Israel. I believe that in a future where the culture wars are less of an issue, evangelicals will return to their pre-Roe and Reagan Revolution status as a low-participation group in American politics and America will therefore take a more neutral approach to Israel. America has been moving in this direction for a while now due to a combination of social, economic, and foreign policy decisions  that have most directly impacted this group so it was inevitable the pendulum of change was going to swing in their direction. You’re right that some of these ideas conflict with each other, and they’ll be fought over in future presidential administrations. The history of American foreign policy is riddled with contradictions.