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Author Topic: $7.00 Minimum Wage????  (Read 17668 times)
qwerty
Dick Nixon
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« on: July 20, 2004, 05:09:05 am »
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Ted Kennedy wants to raise minimum wage from $5.15 to $7.00. That's absurd. It will put many small businesses out of business.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2004, 06:41:29 am »
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Not a good idea. It might help SOME of the poor, but the ones that lose their jobs won't be so happy. Most employers pay more than minimum wage anyways. When I worked at Burger King, everyone got $6.50 to start. When I worked at a movie theater, I got $6.00 to start and getting a raise was easy when I advance in experience. Hardly necessary.
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« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2004, 08:52:47 am »
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California is at $6.75 and our economy is just fine.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2004, 08:56:45 am »
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Ted Kennedy wants to raise minimum wage from $5.15 to $7.00. That's absurd. It will put many small businesses out of business.


If he is serious about a living wage AND eliminating poverty just raise the minimum wage to $25.00/hour. (I fear many viewers of this thread will actually see wisdom in this idea!)

So much for stopping outsourcing then! Smiley
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migrendel
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« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2004, 09:02:40 am »
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I never saw why there is this liberal deference to small business. At this stage in the game, we should be moving to nationalize economic functions, not decentralize them.

But you must consider this. The minimum wage as it was in the late sixties would be $8.17 today adjusted for inflation and small business was surviving. I suppose we have to account for higher interest rates and amenities that businesses need today that weren't needed then, but my point is that that was what was considered needful back then. Considering some of the things that families need today, it would be obscene for the minimum wage to not be higher than that. The fact of the matter is that it is pointless to talk about small business owners when their workers can't make enough money to survive.
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« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2004, 10:00:34 am »
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I never saw why there is this liberal deference to small business. At this stage in the game, we should be moving to nationalize economic functions, not decentralize them.
Yes central planning worked really well for all of the Communist countries.  Roll Eyes  

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The fact of the matter is that it is pointless to talk about small business owners when their workers can't make enough money to survive.
So it's better for people to be out of work and have no income than it is for people to have a job, be ga and being a productive member of society?   Even the lowest job, will provide a record of important skills for success (ie. attendance, timeliness, attention to detail, etc.) and demonstrate that might be worthy of moving up.   Oh wait I forgot central planners want everyone to be dependent on the government.

Besides you don't need to be able to aford drink at Starbucks 7 times a week to survive.  One of my friends just moved into a trailer park, with rent, food, and beer he needs about $300/mo to live confortably.  Of course the central planners probably want to tear down the trailer park and build "low-income" houses which will rent for $400-$500/month.  
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Fmr. Gov. NickG
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« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2004, 10:25:00 am »
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We should absolutely increase the minimum wage, preferably to about $10/hour.  Increasing the minimum wage has a only very minor effects on overall unemployment.  And any specific business that cannot afford to pay their employees more than slave wages should not be in business in the first place.

Although I think we should make exceptions for a very small number of industries that only hire teenagers or other people who do not have to be self-dependent.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2004, 10:26:59 am by Gov. NickG »Logged
ijohn57s
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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2004, 10:38:03 am »
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Raising the minimum raise to $7.00 would be an economic disaster. Small businesses would go out of business, and larger companies would have to lay people off. You can't pay as many people at $7.00 an hour as at $5.15 an hour. Unemployment and prices would go up. If you don't believe that, think about what NewFederalist wrote. Why don't you raise it to $10. Then $20. $30? $50? No. It would destroy the ecomony. Raising the minimum wage won't help. Also, people working at minimum wage are mostly teenagers and young adults. Those are starting level jobs, not careers.
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« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2004, 11:25:10 am »
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Raising the minimum raise to $7.00 would be an economic disaster. Small businesses would go out of business, and larger companies would have to lay people off. You can't pay as many people at $7.00 an hour as at $5.15 an hour. Unemployment and prices would go up. If you don't believe that, think about what NewFederalist wrote. Why don't you raise it to $10. Then $20. $30? $50? No. It would destroy the ecomony. Raising the minimum wage won't help. Also, people working at minimum wage are mostly teenagers and young adults. Those are starting level jobs, not careers.

If a business is only willing to pay its worker $5.15 and these workers are not teenagers or people who don't have to support themselves (e.g. disabled), then that business is exploiting the desperation of the working poor and deserves to go out of business.   It seems like when many people here refer to "small business" they basically mean "business that can't operate efficiently".  
 
Also, our country would be much better off if we weren't coddled by the low consumer prices having a perpetual underclass makes possible.  Raising the minimum wage might slightly raise these prices, but it wouldn't raise unemployment.   It may put some inefficient firms out of business, but it will strengthen those firms that operate efficiently, enabling them to hire more people.
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« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2004, 12:42:46 pm »
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this is doable and wouldn't have to cause layoffs if he limited CEO pay like in Denmark. Say that no employee can be paid any more than say 7 times more than the lowest paid employee in the company. So if the janitor's making around $15k a year ($7 an hour with a 40 hour work week before witholding tax), the top CEO can't get anymore than $105k a year. And how can $105k a year not be enough?
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« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2004, 01:01:20 pm »
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California is at $6.75 and our economy is just fine.

Smiley

We in Cali can handle a $7.00 minimum wage.  Somewhere that doesn't have our cost of living, like Wisconsin, would have a lot of trouble, since wages and prices tend to be lower.  I like things as they are, where the Feds set a floor of $5.15, and the states add to that on a case by case basis.
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« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2004, 01:30:34 pm »
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I would support a modest increase in the minimum wage, $5.35 or so.  

An increase to $7 would work, but it needs to be done gradually, not all at once.
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Fmr. Gov. NickG
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« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2004, 01:43:54 pm »
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I would support a modest increase in the minimum wage, $5.35 or so.  

An increase to $7 would work, but it needs to be done gradually, not all at once.

I agree that the minimim wage should not be increased all at once...and I think the serious proposals to increase it do it over two or three years.  I think it should be raised about $1/year for the next 4-5 years.
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RomneyGekko Situation Hairgel
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« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2004, 01:55:50 pm »
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I think min. wage should be indexed to inflation.  It should be $8.00/hr for certain retail/easier jobs and $15.00/hr. for more technical and harder labor jobs.  I personally do not feel CEOs are valued at what they are.  Yeah some CEOs are worth a few million, but some are glorified managers and making tens or even hundereds of millions and that's not right.  There should be stricter SEC rules on stock options coupled with min. wage increases.  

NixonNow, your argument for boardwalk employers is absurd.  The Curly Fries owner pays Mexicans dirt and has about 5 mansions and a yacht.  Those guys can EASILY pay the rent.  
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Dave from Michigan
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« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2004, 02:52:07 pm »
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No do not raise minumum wage at all, unless i get the same increase as they do. Some of these  minumum wage workers aren't worth 2.50 let alone 5.15
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opebo
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« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2004, 05:33:50 pm »
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this is doable and wouldn't have to cause layoffs if he limited CEO pay like in Denmark. Say that no employee can be paid any more than say 7 times more than the lowest paid employee in the company. So if the janitor's making around $15k a year ($7 an hour with a 40 hour work week before witholding tax), the top CEO can't get anymore than $105k a year. And how can $105k a year not be enough?

105K a year is very little money in much of the US.  And certainly either $5.15 an hour or $7 an hour is truly desperation level income.  But minimum wage laws are authoritarian interventions in private interactions.  If we were more honest with ourselves we'd recognize that the working class is inevitably going to lead a poor sort of life, and no amount of restricting of freedom can change that.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2004, 05:34:37 pm by opebo »Logged

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Bandit3 the Worker
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« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2004, 08:02:28 pm »
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But you must consider this. The minimum wage as it was in the late sixties would be $8.17 today adjusted for inflation and small business was surviving.

Then the minimum wage ought to be raised to $8.17.
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qwerty
Dick Nixon
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« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2004, 08:19:34 pm »
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Raising the minimum wage is going to cause many small businesses to lay-off employees because many simply can't pay them.

Raising minimum wage is just going to increase the poverty rate and unemployment rate.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2004, 08:24:18 pm »
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But you must consider this. The minimum wage as it was in the late sixties would be $8.17 today adjusted for inflation and small business was surviving.

Then the minimum wage ought to be raised to $8.17.

Not necessarily - how has the cost of buying the basic necessities changed based on inflation?
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Bandit3 the Worker
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« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2004, 08:26:07 pm »
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how has the cost of buying the basic necessities changed based on inflation?

Uh, that's what inflation is. It's an increase in cost.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2004, 08:50:27 pm »
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how has the cost of buying the basic necessities changed based on inflation?

Uh, that's what inflation is. It's an increase in cost.

It's also a decrease in the value in money. It's a combination of both really. One could go higher than the other(making something cheaper doesn't necessarily decrease inflation).
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« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2004, 09:59:48 pm »
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Eh, I don't understand why people insist on promoting policies that result in putting small businesses out of business.
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« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2004, 12:17:25 am »
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Eh, I don't understand why people insist on promoting policies that result in putting small businesses out of business.

Everyone who is arguing this isn't addressing why firms should be encouraged to stay in business if they are paying their workers desperation level wages.

Certainly the abolition of slavery put some plantation owners "out of business", but I don't feel sorry for them.  

If a company can't treat their workers with the basic human dignity of a living wage, then that company should not have a place in the economy of such an affluent society.

Also, every economic report you hear touts the huge increases in the productivity of workers.  If workers have become so productive, why aren't they being paid more?  All the economic benefits of productivity are just going to corporate profits and consumer prices, not to the workers where they belong.
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The Duke
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« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2004, 01:23:27 am »
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NickG,

Raising the minimum wage doesn't ensure that someone who is more productive than 10 years ago and is paid $10 per hour gets their fair share of money.

Most of those productivity gains are not the result of workers, either.  Its automation, which is funded and driven by management.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2004, 08:15:02 am »
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Eh, I don't understand why people insist on promoting policies that result in putting small businesses out of business.
Also, every economic report you hear touts the huge increases in the productivity of workers.  If workers have become so productive, why aren't they being paid more?  All the economic benefits of productivity are just going to corporate profits and consumer prices, not to the workers where they belong.

Actually, workers are paid more. As productivity increases wages increase, because the work becomes more valuable - it's a simple economic concept. Now, what you don't mention is whether this is an increase in the output of unskilled laborers(who are most likely to be paid minimum wage) or skilled workers - skilled workers make more use of modern technology, which sometimes requires skill, than unskilled laborers. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, om 1980 men with only high school education earned  an average of $36,430* anually, while male college graduates earned $52,492. In 2000, high school education men earned $36,770 and male college grads earned $69,421. What happened in that time frame? Computers happened, and the demand for skilled labor skyrocketed, so wages increased for skilled labor. If the productivity had increased for unskilled labor, the value of that labor would increase and wages would increase. People are paid for what their job is worth, plain and simple - if you are paid minimum wage, your job isn't worth much.

*Note - data adjusted for inflation and is in 2000 dollars.
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