$7.00 Minimum Wage????

[John Dibble]

I don't think any politician actually wants to stop poor people from making money.

Apparently you've never heard of Newtzi "The Nazi" Gingrich, "Dirty Dick" Armey, "Phascist Phil" Gramm, "Toilet Tommy" Thompson, and George Dumbya Bush. Scuzzbags they are.

Ok, regardless of me not liking any of the mentioned politicians that I've heard of, what exactly have they done to intentionally keep poor people poor?

[Lunar]

He refuses to cite facts because "Republicans don't either."  Good luck.

[Bandit3 the Worker]

Ok, regardless of me not liking any of the mentioned politicians that I've heard of, what exactly have they done to intentionally keep poor people poor?

Remember all that Contract With America garbage?

[John Dibble]

Ok, regardless of me not liking any of the mentioned politicians that I've heard of, what exactly have they done to intentionally keep poor people poor?

Remember all that Contract With America garbage?

Nope. Never heard of it. Haven't been politically active that long(only happened when I became libertarian and had something I could actually believe in), but looking it up I found this:

http://www.house.gov/house/Contract/CONTRACT.html

So what part of it do you have a problem with?

[Posterity]

Ted Kennedy wants to raise minimum wage from $5.15 to $7.00. That's absurd. It will put many small businesses out of business.

If he is serious about a living wage AND eliminating poverty just raise the minimum wage to $25.00/hour. (I fear many viewers of this thread will actually see wisdom in this idea!)

Why only $25.00/hour?  Let's just go for it and raise the minimum wage to $500.00/hour.  Then by this time next year, all working Americans will be millionaires and we can all retire.  Woohoo!  Any business that can't afford to pay its employees a million dollars per year isn't operating effeciently enough and deserves to be put out of business.

[David S]

Most manufacturing jobs already pay more than $7.00 per hour but raising the minimum wage will probably drive all wages up accordingly. Thanks to NAFTA and GATT american companies have to compete with 2 buck an hour labor in Mexico and buck an hour labor in China. How will raising the wage make us more competitive?

[KEmperor]

I am very pleased that Pataki vetoed the wage hike.  This more than anything else earns my vote if he runs again in 2006.  I am afraid that the legislature will be able to override, however.....

[Lunar]

Most manufacturing jobs already pay more than $7.00 per hour but raising the minimum wage will probably drive all wages up accordingly. Thanks to NAFTA and GATT american companies have to compete with 2 buck an hour labor in Mexico and buck an hour labor in China. How will raising the wage make us more competitive?

Aren't libertarians radically in favor of free trade?

[David S]

I guess this is one of those inexplicable twists of fate but I'm a Libertarian who is not entirely sold on free trade. While I believe that a competitive free market is the best system for delivering quality goods and services at the lowest prices, I think the deck is very heavily stacked against American companies. Putting American industry out of business is probably not a good idea.

[John Dibble]

Most manufacturing jobs already pay more than $7.00 per hour but raising the minimum wage will probably drive all wages up accordingly. Thanks to NAFTA and GATT american companies have to compete with 2 buck an hour labor in Mexico and buck an hour labor in China. How will raising the wage make us more competitive?

Aren't libertarians radically in favor of free trade?

Free trade with minimal government intervention, yes. Forcing a wage increase would make manufacturing in other countries(with cheaper labor) more lucrative. Though the labor here may have cost more to start with, the savings on shipping may have prevented companies from moving their manufacture elsewhere. But with a wage increase, labor becomes more expensive, and thusly saving on labor rather than shipping may be more profitable, so thusly companies move the jobs out of country. Since the U.S. is the biggest consumber of goods, sometimes it makes sense to manufacture here, but if labor costs offset the savings on shipping the demand to manufacture here rather than elsewhere plummets, effectively cutting us out of the competition for the manufacturing job pie. Libertarians would rather the market do it's own work, which would likely be more beneficial to the country, since more manufacturing jobs would stay here.

[David S]

As I see it, it stacks up like this: American manufacturers have to pay maybe $12 to $30 per hour for labor. Mexico pays $2 per hour and China pays $1. American companies have to pay high health care premiums for employees. Mexico and China don't. American companies pay about $200 billion in U.S. income taxes, and about the same in soc sec taxes for their employees + property taxes on their plants. Mexico and China pay zippo. On top of that American companies have to meet EPA and OSHA requirements which cost money. Mexico and China don't. As far as shipping goes its not that expensive. And Mexico is actually closer to many markets in the west coast than say Detroit is. I don't see a way in which American firms can compete against that. Its like sending our Olympic swimmers to the games with their hands tied behind their backs and an anchor around their necks and then telling them to beat the best swimmers in the world. Its almost as if free trade were intended to put American business out of business. I don't see that as a good thing.

[John Dibble]

David - you just proved why you can't have free trade with heavy government regulation. With government regulation it isn't free trade at all.

[David S]

To my Libertarian friend from Georgia; you are correct. But the thing is we already have heavy government regulation and even if Badnarik gets elected he isn't going to be able change all of those things I mentioned. So allowing free trade with low cost countries while we are still bound with taxes and regulations is rather suicidal. My point is that whether we want high taxes or low taxes there will have to be some taxes. Those taxes have to come from somewhere, so why not get part of it from import taxes and take a proportional tax burden off of American companies.  BTW the constitution clearly gives congress the authority to levy taxes on imports.

[John Dibble]

Another good point, David. It comes down to something I was discussing in another thread - you can't have instant transitions. If you wanted to move to a new style of government, you have to do it over time. All at once will cause harm.

Taxes on imports - sometimes good, sometimes bad, depends on what it is on. I would prefer there be no tariff on imported cane sugar, for instance(to replace high fructose corn syrup in soft drinks, considering how much we drink: high amounts of fructose can screw up your metabolism and increase your risk for obesity, so regular sugar is preferable to the stuff we use now, but it costs more than it would otherwise so it's more profitable to use hfcs). On other things(cars, perhaps), I wouldn't mind so much.