SiCKO

[Bono]

Anyway, do you plan on taking social security when you are older?

Even if he did, so what? Isn't he paying taxes towards it? In the outlandish possibility that the system isn't in bankruptcy by the time he reaches old age, he'd be just getting a bit back from what they took from him.

[Bono]

Haven't seen the movie, and don't really plan to. Michael Moore isn't exactly the guy to go to for a completely accurate documentary. I did read one review that made some quite good points - while Moore does a good job of pointing out problems in our system (though often cherry picked exceptional cases rather than general ones) he doesn't give any problems that happen in countries with universal health care. Take for instance that in Canada dogs can get a hip replacement in a week, but for humans it might take months or even years. Like most things Moore makes, all indications are that it's almost completely one sided.

The point that's often missed is that in most universal health care countries (Britain being the only exception I know of), you are free to pay for your own elective health care and receive more prompt service if you so desire. This is basically the same as the US system, except, if you can't pay for the expensive hip replacement, you'll be able to get one anyway, just slower.

The movie was decent. I tend to agree with reviews that it could have made the same point without some of the omissions although detailed explanations would really just confuse most moviegoers. It certainly showed the myriad failings of our system well. Bowling for Columbine was better, but this one is much better than Fahrenheit 9/11.

No, Britain is a two-tier system too. The exception you're thinking off is Canada. However, most liberals are proposing a Canada-like single payer system, not a two-tier system.

[Bono]

I saw the movie and I appreciate the Austrian Social Security System even more. I mean it´s clear that he picked out the Horror-Stories, but I share the eyebrow-raising with the Canadian doctor when he was told about the American guy without insurance if he wanted his ring finger attached for 10.000 $ or his middle finger for 60.000$. For me it´s obvious that this system sucks if the money goes before the patient´s life. It´s good that we treat patients first and then care about the financials. I´d rather be solidaric and would be willing to pay for my countrymen who are in need rather than beeing an egoistic nut.

The list of possible diseases that made you ineligible for an insurance freaked me out too. Here you have an insurance no matter what disease you have or may have had. That the insurance companies deny you their services because you had one of the trillion diseases and that they even tried to gain at the expense of the sick really stunned me.

20% of Austrians find our Health-care system "very good", 62% "good", 11% neither good or bad and just 5% "bad" and 2% "very bad" - a proof of confidence.

I know our system too has its flaws like every system does, but at least noone needs to make a movie about it and it´s certainly not regarded as "Evil Socialized System" ...

What is the waiting list to see a specialist?

[Bono]

I saw the movie and I appreciate the Austrian Social Security System even more. I mean it´s clear that he picked out the Horror-Stories, but I share the eyebrow-raising with the Canadian doctor when he was told about the American guy without insurance if he wanted his ring finger attached for 10.000 $ or his middle finger for 60.000$. For me it´s obvious that this system sucks if the money goes before the patient´s life. It´s good that we treat patients first and then care about the financials. I´d rather be solidaric and would be willing to pay for my countrymen who are in need rather than beeing an egoistic nut.

The list of possible diseases that made you ineligible for an insurance freaked me out too. Here you have an insurance no matter what disease you have or may have had. That the insurance companies deny you their services because you had one of the trillion diseases and that they even tried to gain at the expense of the sick really stunned me.

20% of Austrians find our Health-care system "very good", 62% "good", 11% neither good or bad and just 5% "bad" and 2% "very bad" - a proof of confidence.

I know our system too has its flaws like every system does, but at least noone needs to make a movie about it and it´s certainly not regarded as "Evil Socialized System" ...

What is the waiting list to see a specialist?

Depends on what "specialist" you mean I think and how many patients currently have an appointment with him/her. If I want to go to a skin doctor for example I can take just 1 day to get an appointment or up to a week or 2. The same with a dentist. If he has lots of clients it may take 2 weeks ... That doesn´t mean you don´t get an appointment if you have serious toothache. You normally get one within a day then. I can´t complain about long waiting periods and I´m certainly middle-class. On the other hand I never had to apply for a kidney-transplant, so I don´t know about that issue ...

Is the Austrian system insurance based like Switzerland's, or based in a socialized provision like the UK and Portugal? If I use the state system here, I can count on at least a month's waiting to see a specialist, and that is not counting the wait to see my GP to get a referral, assuming he won't just dismiss my symptoms and tell me to take it easy.

[Bono]

Haven't seen the movie, and don't really plan to. Michael Moore isn't exactly the guy to go to for a completely accurate documentary. I did read one review that made some quite good points - while Moore does a good job of pointing out problems in our system (though often cherry picked exceptional cases rather than general ones) he doesn't give any problems that happen in countries with universal health care. Take for instance that in Canada dogs can get a hip replacement in a week, but for humans it might take months or even years. Like most things Moore makes, all indications are that it's almost completely one sided.

The point that's often missed is that in most universal health care countries (Britain being the only exception I know of), you are free to pay for your own elective health care and receive more prompt service if you so desire. This is basically the same as the US system, except, if you can't pay for the expensive hip replacement, you'll be able to get one anyway, just slower.

The movie was decent. I tend to agree with reviews that it could have made the same point without some of the omissions although detailed explanations would really just confuse most moviegoers. It certainly showed the myriad failings of our system well. Bowling for Columbine was better, but this one is much better than Fahrenheit 9/11.

No, Britain is a two-tier system too. The exception you're thinking off is Canada. However, most liberals are proposing a Canada-like single payer system, not a two-tier system.

Hmmm?

To quote Wikipedia:

"Many Canadians have private health insurance..."

To cover things Medicare doesn't cover. It's illegal to have private insurance covering things Medicare covers, except on Quebec.

[Bono]

I could care less if you don't have health care.  Would I like you to? Of course, but if you don't not my problem.

Communicable diseases very quickly become your problem.

Cannot say I have ever been effected by something that horrible, and anything that bad I go to my doctor he gives me some good medicine I give my $15 co-pay and in a day or two I feel better.

My biggest problem with UHC is that the government sucks and wastes money and there is no way that UHC would not just be another complicated, abused, and overfunded government program.

And you don't think the current system is complicated, abused, and inefficient.  Ever been to a hospital emergency room in a major city?

Ever been to a hospital emergency room in a country with socialized medicine?

[Bono]

I could care less if you don't have health care.  Would I like you to? Of course, but if you don't not my problem.

Communicable diseases very quickly become your problem.

Cannot say I have ever been effected by something that horrible, and anything that bad I go to my doctor he gives me some good medicine I give my $15 co-pay and in a day or two I feel better.

My biggest problem with UHC is that the government sucks and wastes money and there is no way that UHC would not just be another complicated, abused, and overfunded government program.

And you don't think the current system is complicated, abused, and inefficient.  Ever been to a hospital emergency room in a major city?

Ever been to a hospital emergency room in a country with socialized medicine?

I live in a state with what is essentially socialized medicine.

Well I live in a country with what is really socialized medicine, and let me tell you it's got nothing on that. Even today, a Ministry of Health study came out saying the average waiting time for a cancer patient to get surgery to remove the cancer was three and a half months, reaching seven months in some cases.

[Bono]

And we should all take employment advice from a kid who really doesn't understand how difficult it can be even for a highly qualified person to get a job, especially after quitting a previous job. Companies aren't going to hire you if you say, "I quit my job because it had poor health coverage, but you have good health coverage." They don't want to pay for you.

If you have cancer and a bad job, you deserve to die!

I still fail to see why I should pay for a broken government system.  Does anyone really believe that socialized medicine would work?  I mean we've just had so much success with medicare and social security.

You can argue that "Social Security" could be run better, but even under its current form, I consider the program to be a tremendous success in keeping the rotting corpses of the bankrupted elderly from rotting in the streets.

Broken window fallacy. You can't possibly know what would have happened if social security had not been instituted.