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| | | |-+  Nader, 2000's Scapegoat
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Author Topic: Nader, 2000's Scapegoat  (Read 6471 times)
D.R.M.
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« on: July 07, 2007, 02:04:22 am »
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Infamously, Ralph Nader ran in the 2000 US Presidential Election as the Green Party’s candidate. He garnered support from neglected left-wing voters, receiving of the popular vote.

Nader’s image was tarnished in the eyes of many Democrats. It shouldn’t have been. As a consumer activist Nader pressured big businesses into putting seatbelts and airbags in cars. He forced airlines to reimburse passengers that had their flights bumped. He was instrumental in passing the Freedom of Information Act. 

As for the Florida fiasco a number of left-wing third parties could have tipped the balance in Gore’s favour. Monica Moorehead of the Workers World Party received 1,815 votes, while the Socialists gained 618 votes and the Socialist Workers 594 votes. All of these votes would have likely gone to Gore in a two man race, yet nobody complains about these third parties splitting the vote.

The flawed electoral system and incorrect vote counting hurt Gore more than Nader.

Al Gore was only marginally better than Bush at the time (who could have predicted 9/11 would actually give Bush a neoconservative mandate back in 2000?). Nader’s 2004 bid for presidency may have been excessive, but Nader forced the Democrats to value their left-wing. For that I thank him and so should progressive Democrats.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 10:11:20 pm by D.R.M. »Logged

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« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2007, 03:57:11 am »
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I agree that Nader gets a bad rap.

BTW, nice to see another dipper on the forums. Welcome Smiley
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Boris
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« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2007, 06:47:24 pm »
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lol. I can't wait for BRTD's response.
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« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2007, 06:51:49 pm »
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All of these votes would have likely gone to Gore in a two man race

I disagree.

Compared to the average Nader voter, I think that the average socialist third party voter is much less likely to vote for a first-party candidate.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2007, 06:54:37 pm by Alcon »Logged

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« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2007, 07:48:49 pm »
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Since all of Nader's supporters were young hippies, I doubt most of them would've bothered to vote had he not been on the ballot.  But I'd bet a million bucks that at least 538 of them in Florida would've shown up for Gore.
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D.R.M.
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« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2007, 03:57:30 am »
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Since all of Nader's supporters were young hippies, I doubt most of them would've bothered to vote had he not been on the ballot.  But I'd bet a million bucks that at least 538 of them in Florida would've shown up for Gore.

The same can be said of supporters for the other parties. Gore is mostly reponsible for these left voters voting Nader. Had his party actually listened or addressed the leftwing before the last minute, he wouldn't have lost those votes.
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Boris
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« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2007, 11:26:19 am »
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Since all of Nader's supporters were young hippies, I doubt most of them would've bothered to vote had he not been on the ballot.  But I'd bet a million bucks that at least 538 of them in Florida would've shown up for Gore.

The same can be said of supporters for the other parties. Gore is mostly reponsible for these left voters voting Nader. Had his party actually listened or addressed the leftwing before the last minute, he wouldn't have lost those votes.

Yes, but Nader clearly was the most guilty culprit. Nader received 97,488 votes in Florida, whereas the other leftist candidates received less than 2000 votes. Had Nader not been on the ballot, I'm 99.9% confident that Al Gore would have received a net gain of 538 votes in Florida. And the rest, as they say, is history.

And Alcon is correct; people that voted third party socialist probably a) wouldn't have voted or b) voted for another third party candidate. Enough Nader voters would have voted for Gore, as indicated by their large swing towards Kerry in 2004.

And in what respects do you say that the left-wing was ignored in 2000? Can you give any specific issues?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2007, 11:36:37 am by Boris »Logged

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« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2007, 12:44:26 pm »
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Let's see how awful Nader is:

-He is a totalitarian
-He supports James Dobson
-He owned shares in Halliburton
-His campaign was basically completely funded by the Republican Party

Nader is a right wing piece of sh!t serving his Republican masters. He is one truly awful excuse for a human being, and should NEVER EVER EVER receive support from left wingers. F**K RALPH NADER!
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« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2007, 01:55:26 pm »
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Tell us how you really feel.
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D.R.M.
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« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2007, 09:26:58 pm »
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Since all of Nader's supporters were young hippies, I doubt most of them would've bothered to vote had he not been on the ballot.  But I'd bet a million bucks that at least 538 of them in Florida would've shown up for Gore.

The same can be said of supporters for the other parties. Gore is mostly reponsible for these left voters voting Nader. Had his party actually listened or addressed the leftwing before the last minute, he wouldn't have lost those votes.

Yes, but Nader clearly was the most guilty culprit. Nader received 97,488 votes in Florida, whereas the other leftist candidates received less than 2000 votes. Had Nader not been on the ballot, I'm 99.9% confident that Al Gore would have received a net gain of 538 votes in Florida. And the rest, as they say, is history.

And Alcon is correct; people that voted third party socialist probably a) wouldn't have voted or b) voted for another third party candidate. Enough Nader voters would have voted for Gore, as indicated by their large swing towards Kerry in 2004.

And in what respects do you say that the left-wing was ignored in 2000? Can you give any specific issues?

Let's start with his cozy relationship with corporations.

I don't think Gore was entitled to all the non-Republican votes simply because he was the Democratic candidate. 
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 09:30:30 pm by D.R.M. »Logged

Boris
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« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2007, 10:18:06 pm »
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Of course he had a cozy relationship with corporations (as if Ralph Nader hasn't)! He was Vice President of the United States! The manner in which our political system works ensures that politicians on both sides of the political spectrum get cozy with corporations. Otherwise, they lose their financial support and don't get elected. And from a candidate's perspective, losing that money would mean a higher net loss of votes than losing a fraction of a liberal voters.

Honestly, the real reason why 6% of self-identified liberals voted for Nader was because they thought there was no difference between the two candidates (80% voted for Gore and 13% voted for Bush according to CNN exit polls). The last six years have proven them wrong. I guess they didn't make the same mistake in 2004 (even though Kerry's views were pretty much the same as Gore's), but alas, by then, the damage to this country had already been done.

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I don't think Gore was entitled to all the non-Republican votes simply because he was the Democratic candidate.

It's irrelevant what you think Gore was entitled to (cue Jmfcst with a movie reference). Had Ralph Nader not been on the Florida Ballot, Al Gore would have won the 2000 Presidential Election. Therefore, Ralph Nader is responsible for George W. Bush's victory. Was he the only factor responsible? Of course not. But by far the most pragmatic and simplest way to assure a Gore victory would have been to remove Nader from the ballot in Florida and New Hampshire.
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« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2007, 11:16:36 am »
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Since all of Nader's supporters were young hippies, I doubt most of them would've bothered to vote had he not been on the ballot.  But I'd bet a million bucks that at least 538 of them in Florida would've shown up for Gore.

The same can be said of supporters for the other parties. Gore is mostly reponsible for these left voters voting Nader. Had his party actually listened or addressed the leftwing before the last minute, he wouldn't have lost those votes.

Yes, but Nader clearly was the most guilty culprit. Nader received 97,488 votes in Florida, whereas the other leftist candidates received less than 2000 votes. Had Nader not been on the ballot, I'm 99.9% confident that Al Gore would have received a net gain of 538 votes in Florida. And the rest, as they say, is history.

And Alcon is correct; people that voted third party socialist probably a) wouldn't have voted or b) voted for another third party candidate. Enough Nader voters would have voted for Gore, as indicated by their large swing towards Kerry in 2004.

And in what respects do you say that the left-wing was ignored in 2000? Can you give any specific issues?

Let's start with his cozy relationship with corporations.

I don't think Gore was entitled to all the non-Republican votes simply because he was the Democratic candidate. 

LOL, Nader's not friendly with corporations. That's why he owned shares of Halliburton.

I think most non-Republicans would prefer Gore over a Republican-funded fascist. Remember, NADER WAS ACCEPTING MONEY FROM REPUBLICANS. That makes him a complete f**king joke, even if you ignore his horrible authoritarian politics.

Nader is one truly disgusting worthless excuse for a human being. I have said for a long time that as soon as I hear of his death, I'm taking a shot in celebration, and I am dead serious.
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« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2007, 11:48:51 am »
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Had Ralph Nader not been on the Florida Ballot, Al Gore would have won the 2000 Presidential Election. Therefore, Ralph Nader is responsible for George W. Bush's victory.  Was he the only factor responsible? Of course not. But by far the most pragmatic and simplest way to assure a Gore victory would have been to remove Nader from the ballot in Florida and New Hampshire.

Had Al Gore not sucked so much as a Presidential candidate, Al Gore would have won the 2000 Presidential Election.  Therefore, Al Gore is responsible for George W. Bush's victory.  Was he the only factor responsible?  Of course not.  But by far the most pragmatic and simplest way to assure a Gore victory would have been to improve Gore's messaging and skill as a campaigner.

(And maybe he shouldn't have come across as such a detestable prick in the debates, either.)

Third party candidates run all the time.  Deal with it.
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I think it is very possible that Vladimir Putin could be the Antichrist.  That is nothing more than an educated guess on my part.
Boris
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« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2007, 12:12:27 pm »
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Had Ralph Nader not been on the Florida Ballot, Al Gore would have won the 2000 Presidential Election. Therefore, Ralph Nader is responsible for George W. Bush's victory.  Was he the only factor responsible? Of course not. But by far the most pragmatic and simplest way to assure a Gore victory would have been to remove Nader from the ballot in Florida and New Hampshire.

Had Al Gore not sucked so much as a Presidential candidate, Al Gore would have won the 2000 Presidential Election.  Therefore, Al Gore is responsible for George W. Bush's victory.  Was he the only factor responsible?  Of course not.  But by far the most pragmatic and simplest way to assure a Gore victory would have been to improve Gore's messaging and skill as a campaigner.

(And maybe he shouldn't have come across as such a detestable prick in the debates, either.)

That wouldn't have been the most pragmatic and simplest way to ensure a Gore victory. A change in campaign strategy and candidate personality is far more complex and arduous task than the hypothetical removal of one third party candidate from one state.

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Third party candidates run all the time.  Deal with it.

Oh, I will once the damage that the Bush Administration has done to the world has been rectified. Until then, I prefer to bitch and moan without actually contributing any real solutions to the problem. Wink
« Last Edit: July 12, 2007, 12:15:33 pm by Boris »Logged

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« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2007, 01:17:14 pm »
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That wouldn't have been the most pragmatic and simplest way to ensure a Gore victory. A change in campaign strategy and candidate personality is far more complex and arduous task than the hypothetical removal of one third party candidate from one state.

Had Gore not sighed overdramatically in the first debate, he would have won.  It was certainly more than enough to cost him both Florida and New Mexico.  Is that simple enough?
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Mr Moderate at 54/10 is a total joke, he is a horror.

I think it is very possible that Vladimir Putin could be the Antichrist.  That is nothing more than an educated guess on my part.
Boris
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« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2007, 01:31:49 pm »
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That wouldn't have been the most pragmatic and simplest way to ensure a Gore victory. A change in campaign strategy and candidate personality is far more complex and arduous task than the hypothetical removal of one third party candidate from one state.

Had Gore not sighed overdramatically in the first debate, he would have won.  It was certainly more than enough to cost him both Florida and New Mexico.  Is that simple enough?

Meh, not really (Gore won New Mexico, but perhaps you meant New Hampshire?). There's no concrete evidence to indicate exactly how many votes Gore lost by sighing in that debate. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that there was a massive trend away from Gore after that debate (unlike Dukakis in the second 1988 debate). Basically, the whole incident was just mocked by late night TV hosts and comedians.

I suppose the easiest way to ensure a Gore victory would have been for Floridans to actually have voted for whom they intended to vote for. Then comes the removal of Nader from the ballot in either Florida or New Hampshire. Then there's a multitude of other factors, such as the campaign strategy and running-mate selection (Bob Graham instead of Joe Lieberman would have been cool).
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Rob
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« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2007, 01:46:49 pm »
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as soon as I hear of his death, I'm taking a shot in celebration, and I am dead serious.

terrible pun.
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Here’s what Sarah Palin represents: being a fat fucking pig who pins “Country First” buttons on his man titties and chants “U-S-A! U-S-A!” at the top of his lungs while his kids live off credit cards and Saudis buy up all the mortgages in Kansas.
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« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2007, 04:27:48 pm »
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as soon as I hear of his death, I'm taking a shot in celebration, and I am dead serious.

terrible pun.

ha, I didn't even notice that.
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