French Demographic Maps

[Hashemite]

Dordogne, Correze, Vendee, Ariege, Hautes-Pyrenees, Creuse, Haute-Vienne, Indre, Haute-Saone, Var (to an extent), Aveyron, Lozere (to an extent), Ardennes, Vaucluse, Herault, Gard (both to a limited extent), Lot; even Cantal, Puy-de-Dome, Pyrenees-Atlantiques, Pyrenees-Orientales and Charente don't exist guys? I'm not saying this is the cause of anything or that it explains all much or that the correlation is even strong; but denying that there's just no connection is stupid. And I hope you're just denying the link in a modern context; because if you're denying the existence of any link, ever; you don't understand French history. Certainly the connection is much, much weaker now and isn't a good explanation for modern stuff, but...

[Colbert]

For once, I agree with Colbert.

As for Armorican mountains, well, there are absolutely no muntains there
As for Jura, it's not an agricultural mountain.
Larzac is more surprising.

I said "moutains" but, indeed, I would better had speak about hills. (I come from Finistère, and it's not the germano-polish plain^^)

[Colbert]

Dordogne, Correze, Vendee, Ariege, Hautes-Pyrenees, Creuse, Haute-Vienne, Indre, Haute-Saone, Var (to an extent), Aveyron, Lozere (to an extent), Ardennes, Vaucluse, Herault, Gard (both to a limited extent), Lot; even Cantal, Puy-de-Dome, Pyrenees-Atlantiques, Pyrenees-Orientales and Charente don't exist guys? I'm not saying this is the cause of anything or that it explains all much or that the correlation is even strong; but denying that there's just no connection is stupid. And I hope you're just denying the link in a modern context; because if you're denying the existence of any link, ever; you don't understand French history. Certainly the connection is much, much weaker now and isn't a good explanation for modern stuff, but...

But what political correlation are you talking about ? What's connexion between normandy, Alpes, Pyrenees, Ardenne, Dordogne, Corse, Upper Languedoc ?
leftism ? no (normandy, Alpes)
rightism ? no (upper languedoc, dordogne, pyrenees)
catholicism ? no (normandy, dordogne, upper languedoc)
protestantism ? no (corse, alpes, ardennes)

centrism ? communism ? far-right ?


I search this relation, but I don't find it anywere

[Hashemite]

Ugh, people. I never said the correlation was perfect; it is partial. There is a partial link, in some places, between small property and leftist tradition. It is not universal, but anybody with half a brain understands that voting patterns and their determinants differ from region to region and that an identical type of makeup in two regions doesn't mean that they vote identically - far from it. And even if I recognize that it is not the only cause, it certainly informs a political tradition.

[bgwah]

Epic map time, demographic version

can't read the keys

[big bad fab]

Ugh, people. I never said the correlation was perfect; it is partial. There is a partial link, in some places, between small property and leftist tradition. It is not universal, but anybody with half a brain understands that voting patterns and their determinants differ from region to region and that an identical type of makeup in two regions doesn't mean that they vote identically - far from it. And even if I recognize that it is not the only cause, it certainly informs a political tradition.

Of course, there is still a partial link, I agree. My answer to Colbert was just quickly typed between two meetings

You're right for south of Berry, Languedoc, inner Var (though south of Var and Alpes-Maritimes have small farms statistically because they are hugely urbanized and so, the lands left aren't very big).

But Ariège, Hautes Pyrénées, Pyrénées Atlantiques and Pyrénées Orientales, it's about Pyrenees.
Haute-Saône, it's only the part in Vosges, so not exactly the strongest area for the left.
You're right for south of Berry and for Limousin, though the Massif Central is widespread.
Charente-Maritime, the south is orange in your map, while it's rgithist territory; while the north is blue, while it's leftist territory.

There are also counter-examples to what you say: Savoies, Brittany in a way, Manche, Cher, even the "red" Allier, Meurthe-et-Moselle in a way, which are all counter-intuitive base on modern electoral results. The same for Cantal which is really a "blue" departement.
The same for south of Var, Alpes-Maritimes, but also the heart of Champagne (the NW corner of Marne: slight orange while it's UMP-fascist wing of FN territory), just because big wine farms are small ones even if hugely rich ones (see also the ousth of Saône-et-Loire and the north of Rhône).

My comment was really too short: you're globally right, but what I wanted to say is that the first explanation, the first link is geography, which explains far better in details this map. And, after that, as a possible corollary in many areas, there are of course political consequences.

Maybe a better (in the meaning of more correlated in each area) link with other maps would be the rural unionism; results of MODEF and then Confédération paysanne in Agriculture Chambers' elections.

Sorry if my "I agree with Colbert" put just after his "there is no political conection" made you collapse... I can perfectly understand your reaction ! It was unintended and my comment was really trop rapide, dans les deux sens de l'expression .

[Hashemite]

Epic map time, demographic version

can't read the keys

Map 1
red: ouvriers, manual workers
purple: employees
cyan: professions intermediaires, middle-level employees/lower management/teachers
green: agriculteurs; farmers who own their farms
yellow: artisans, commercants - shopkeepers, artisans
blue: CPIS, managers/professional-scientific-tech

Map 2
All the same, except orange for prof. intermediaires

Details here: http://www.insee.fr/fr/methodes/default.asp?page=nomenclatures/pcs2003/liste_n1.htm

[Vasall des Midas]

I don't think "individually exploited" is English. We're talking of farms worked by a single person (or maybe nuclear family) without any employees, I assume.

[Sibboleth]

I don't think "individually exploited" is English. We're talking of farms worked by a single person (or maybe nuclear family) without any employees, I assume.

I think the word looked for is smallholding.

[Colbert]

Big bad fab let me down, but s'il n'en reste qu'un seul, je serais celui-là, as Victor Hugo said. For me, the correlation of this map is geographical and not political, EVEN globally

seeing some left-wing patterns on red zones, even globally, is simply false. (or, at least, uncorrect)

[Sibboleth]

The great Fernand Braudel was a bit of a magpie when it came to maps, and had a charming habit that involved scattering ones by other people that seemed vaguely relevant to his arguments throughout his books. This set (taken from his last work) seems especially appropriate for this thread. It's to do with family structure and was accompanied by a note that the pattern fitted 'in general terms' certain other major geographical/political divisions in France. Braudel actually preferred a three-part model of family types to the simple extended/nuclear one, but, anyway...



A - Farmers
B - Rural Households
C - Urban Households

[Hashemite]

Some median income maps within large cities:

[Vasall des Midas]

Why does Orléans have that bizarre shape?

[Hashemite]

Why does Orléans have that bizarre shape?

I'm not quite sure. A few French communes have bizarre shapes, but in this case it might be a (rare) case of amalgamation. The south of the city, La Source, is a new area built around a uni campus and a fairly low-income HLM 'city' and it is divided from the rest of the city by the Loiret river.