Pledge/Flags in public school

[MODU]

Yes and Yes.

[angus]

As for making people say the Pledge, I think its a horrible idea and goes against everything the Pledge stands for.

Making children wear seatbelts and brush their teeth may be a horrible idea too.  And it ain't always easy, I can assure you.  But you do it.  You learn patience as you do it.  And you're glad someone was there, many years ago, to make you brush and buckle up and learn that a colorful rag may have special symbolism and worth beyond the seven cents worth of material with which it was made in a Chinese sweatshop.  You're not actually pledging to the walmart where it was purchased, or the foreign factory where it was made, or even to the idea that we are forcing anything on anyone.  Rather, you are simply reciting an oath.  Not unlike memorizing the positions of the elements.  Sure, there's a reason that sodium is below lithium in the table, and we'll get to that later.  But for now, you're at an age when rote memorization comes easy and subtle interpretation is beyond your grasp.  When you're forty, it's the opposite.  Hell, I can't even remember where I put the mobile phone and generally just follow the sound to find it.  But for a six-year old, just saying it over and over works the mind's capacity in a way appropriate to that age.  And who knows, it may have the added benefit of instilling within him a sense of nationalism.  Best of all, it's a constant reminder of the propriety of fidelity to the union.  I suppose its in that last one that bugs everyone.  I just don't see it as a problem.  The whole point is that we can choose our leaders and our gods and our laws.  And for most of the history of mankind this would not have been the case.  So there's a hard paradox in your refusal to recognize that a minor force at the beginning brings about the lack of need for force for the rest of one's life. 

Just memorize it for now.  We'll explain it later, once you're able to understand it, and that understanding will be made easier if you do the rote memorization right now while your mental faculties are best suited for that.

[Јas]

Obviously, I didn't go to an American school. I did go to a public school here though. We don't have a pledge of allegiance and I don't ever remember seeing our national flag in any classrooms.

Of course because of the lack of a pledge and not seeing the national flag every hour of the school day, I hate my country.

[Ebowed]

Of course because of the lack of a pledge and not seeing the national flag every hour of the school day, I hate my country.

We already knew that, you communist.

Yes/Yes and make the pledge mandatory to say in class. None of this "I object" bs either.

That's a violation of religious freedom, as well as the other things that have already been mentioned.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Obviously, I didn't go to an American school. I did go to a public school here though. We don't have a pledge of allegiance and I don't ever remember seeing our national flag in any classrooms.

Of course because of the lack of a pledge and not seeing the national flag every hour of the school day, I hate my country.

All Patriotic Irishmen hate their country. That's what being a patriotic Irishman is all about. (Yes, there are plenty of things about Ireland which are mysterious to outsiders...)

Obviously as an Irish protestant who went to a protestant school we had a flag and a pledge - a flag which our teachers assisted us in spitting on and burning every morning during prayers while we laughed at those silly catholics who attend their witchcraft mass. Then we pledged our alleigance to Britain, the Queen and Iain Paisley in that order.

Note: Memo to self. This is an American forum. Now leave the Irish stuff outside.

[Colin]

Freedom isn't free

Yep, it costs a buck o five.

[angus]

...spitting on and burning every morning...

actually flammable spit, every morning, fits well within our stereotypes of irishmen.

[Gabu]

We didn't have any flags in our classrooms, nor do we have a pledge of allegiance, and as you can clearly see, I hate my country and routinely murder civilians because they forgot to force me to be patriotic.

[Ban my account ffs!]

We said the pledge every day up until 5th grade, and then we stopped.  Forced patriotism is feel good fascism.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Yes/Yes, and still support it.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

No/No thankfully.

I refuse to say the pledge now. I consider it idolatry. Any conservatives who have a problem with this are infringing on my religious freedom.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I'm pretty sure this is true of every public school in the United States.  Even in San "Homobortionville" Francisco.

Nope. Not in the conservative bastion I went to school in. Quite amazing.

We had it in elementary school, but not middle school, and certainly not high school.

Freedom isn't free

You realize what that saying means? We aren't going to lose freedom by abolishing the pledge.

plus we are talking about children, who don't have full constitutional rights anyhow.

But what about their parents? The people who first objected to it were Jehova's Witnesses. So you're going to violate their religious freedom? That's something conservatives usually rail against.

[Brandon H]

Yes / Yes

As I explained a while back, the problem is students are taught the pledge without the meaning of the pledge. If they say the pledge without knowing what the words mean, then they're just saying words that are meaning less. Teach them the words and hopefully they will be proud to say the pledge. But if they don't really believe in what they are saying, then don't say it.

Are the United States perfect? No. Would I rather live some where else? Absolutely not.

[Gabu]

Yes / Yes

As I explained a while back, the problem is students are taught the pledge without the meaning of the pledge. If they say the pledge without knowing what the words mean, then they're just saying words that are meaning less. Teach them the words and hopefully they will be proud to say the pledge. But if they don't really believe in what they are saying, then don't say it.

Are the United States perfect? No. Would I rather live some where else? Absolutely not.

Gee, what a concept, actually treating children like sentient beings with a brain instead of trying to simply tell them what to think.

[7,052,770]

Yes / Yes

As I explained a while back, the problem is students are taught the pledge without the meaning of the pledge. If they say the pledge without knowing what the words mean, then they're just saying words that are meaning less. Teach them the words and hopefully they will be proud to say the pledge. But if they don't really believe in what they are saying, then don't say it.

Very true.  I learned the pledge at age 4 and didn't know what half the words meant.  I was essentially reciting gibberish.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

IF Canada didn't have the Quebecois and had better weather or the Netherlands wasn't following the rest of Europe down the road to Eurabia I'd immediently jump ship to those places(Since I'm brown they'd mistake mefor being an arab and thus let me in without bothering to check any ID).

[Friz]

You can just choose to not say "under God".  That's what I did in my last two years of Catholic school.  Not that big of a deal.

[Sensei]

Yes/Yes, but I don't say "under God"

[nclib]

No/No

In my school district, it was left up to each school, and luckily the pledge was never recited in my elementary school, middle school, or high school.

I strongly object to forced patriotism.

[Democratic Hawk]

Didn't go to American public school but lets just say I'd have been downright miffed had it not. We should have something similar in the UK

Dave

[??????????]

Didn't go to American public school but lets just say I'd have been downright miffed had it not. We should have something similar in the UK

Dave

You don't sing 'God Save the Queen'? Serious question.

[Democratic Hawk]

Didn't go to American public school but lets just say I'd have been downright miffed had it not. We should have something similar in the UK

Dave

You don't sing 'God Save the Queen'? Serious question.

No, never in school assembly or class. It's possible we may have done at some stage in 1977 (Silver Jubilee) but I can't recall for certain

Yet, when an old friend of my dad's was Concert Chairman at the local Workingmen's Club every Saturday night (after the dance) and some Sundays (depending on what was on) ended with the National Anthem. He sang, we stood

Dave

[Nym90]

In high school, no, but in elemenatary school, yes.

I don't think recitation of the pledge should be mandatory or led by teachers, but students should learn about it in school and its significance.