Nick Cohen and Johann Hari...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

...are having a feud!

Hari wrote this review of Cohen's book What's Left?, which produced the following response from Cohen, which produced the following response to that... this looks like it might run and run.

It's also spilled over into what lefty blogosphere there is, but, sadly, an especially fun discussion/row was taken down after Hari threatend to sue.

[afleitch]

Cohen's book What's Left?

Good book Spats like these are important if you want to dave an ideology from feckless windbags.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

...are having a feud!

Hari wrote this review of Cohen's book What's Left?, which produced the following response from Cohen, which produced the following response to that... this looks like it might run and run.

It's also spilled over into what lefty blogosphere there is, but, sadly, an especially fun discussion/row was taken down after Hari threatend to sue.

Excellent Review btw.

Funny, but I also highly rated the book too.. or at least certain aspects of it. Cohen was better tackling the Left's general malaise rather then any issue pertaining to Iraq.

P.S: Al, have you read the book?

[afleitch]

(plug) Read 'After Blair' by Kieron O'Hara if you can! (/plug)

[merseysider]

Nick Cohen's "What's Left? How Liberals lost their way" is the best book about British politics I have ever read. It describes everything that is wrong with the so-called liberal left today.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

P.S: Al, have you read the book?

Bits. And I've agreed with most of those bits.

Will probably buy it (and then read the whole thing) fairly soon; I've not done so yet (despite attacks on middle class trendy-lefties being music to my ears) because I can't quite stop thinking of Cohen as being the hard-left oddball he was a few years ago.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

P.S: Al, have you read the book?

Bits. And I've agreed with most of those bits.

Will probably buy it (and then read the whole thing) fairly soon; I've not done so yet (despite attacks on middle class trendy-lefties being music to my ears) because I can't quite stop thinking of Cohen as being the hard-left oddball he was a few years ago.

Why do you hate middle-class people Al, you classist bigot.

Actually I agree with quite a bit of the book aswell, though not all of it. The review above is actually pretty good in showing that George Galloway is something a strawman.. how many people (at least outside of Bethnal Green & Bow) actually take him seriously at all any more? He's clearly a buffoon of the highest order. Plus he does not really make his position on the Bush adminstration clear, he celebrates the invasion and condemns the protesters while trying to distract from who's leading the charge. I might have supported the war had I believed the Bush adminstration was competent\trustworthy\truthful-in-it's-intentions.

I didn't take part in any march, simply because I hated the anti-war movement so much (something Cohen articulates well from my POV.)

[Serenity Now]

P.S: Al, have you read the book?

Bits. And I've agreed with most of those bits.

Will probably buy it (and then read the whole thing) fairly soon; I've not done so yet (despite attacks on middle class trendy-lefties being music to my ears) because I can't quite stop thinking of Cohen as being the hard-left oddball he was a few years ago.

He still is an oddball, he is only really respected now by people who wouldn't agree with him about much other than that he slags off the right people (e.g. the anti-war lobby), and also by those on the left who can overlook his stance on the Iraq war to issues on which he provides a more sensible contribution.

Also, I have a query regarding remarks about "middle class trendy-lefties" like those you make sometimes:

Is your problem with them based on the assumption that if one is middle class then one cannot be genuinely left-wing, and only therefore must being doing it only because it's trendy"?". Is the problem that they are middle class, or that they are leftie or trendy?

If it is the last one I agree, given there are loads of people whose leftism is so obviously an ill thought out image (e.g. a certain sex-obsessed poster from MN who seems to be moving in a path that will become similar to Cohen's IMO).

However, sometimes I worry that you actually believe that someone from a middle-class background cannot be left-wing, and almost imply that you'd rather they be on the right..

(Apologies if any of that sounded rude)

[Tetro Kornbluth]

P.S: Al, have you read the book?

Bits. And I've agreed with most of those bits.

Will probably buy it (and then read the whole thing) fairly soon; I've not done so yet (despite attacks on middle class trendy-lefties being music to my ears) because I can't quite stop thinking of Cohen as being the hard-left oddball he was a few years ago.

He still is an oddball, he is only really respected now by people who wouldn't agree with him about much other than that he slags off the right people (e.g. the anti-war lobby), and also by those on the left who can overlook his stance on the Iraq war to issues on which he provides a more sensible contribution.

Also, I have a query regarding remarks about "middle class trendy-lefties" like those you make sometimes:

Is your problem with them based on the assumption that if one is middle class then one cannot be genuinely left-wing, and only therefore must being doing it only because it's trendy"?". Is the problem that they are middle class, or that they are leftie or trendy?

If it is the last one I agree, given there are loads of people whose leftism is so obviously an ill thought out image (e.g. a certain sex-obsessed poster from MN who seems to be moving in a path that will become similar to Cohen's IMO).

However, sometimes I worry that you actually believe that someone from a middle-class background cannot be left-wing, and almost imply that you'd rather they be on the right..

(Apologies if any of that sounded rude)

Hooray!

[afleitch]

However, sometimes I worry that you actually believe that someone from a middle-class background cannot be left-wing, and almost imply that you'd rather they be on the right..

I wouldn't say he does. Besides, some of Labour's greatest have came from middle class backgrounds. Michael Foot's father was a solicitor, he went to an independent school and was president of the Oxford Union. A similar path followed by many prominent politicians of all parties. I don't think anyone would, even without realising, wish to detract from great politicians simply because they didn't have the 'right' start in life.

As someone who went through the private school system at great financial burden to my parents (And, trying to refrain from violin music, were from working class ex mining stock who are now are pretty comfortable because of the opportunities they created for themselves) I was treated pretty nastily, in retrospect by some my working class (and yes adult) neighbours and friends and then embarassed by some of the 'monied' pupils at school. I was never quite comfortable in ether setting and I've always been irked by the use of class to deny or to grant access to anything. A narrowminded and misplaced 'working class pride' can be as damaging and as limiting as middle class elitism.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Also, I have a query regarding remarks about "middle class trendy-lefties" like those you make sometimes:

Only sometimes?

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No.

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The second one, more or less.

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No, I certainly don't think that.

I should add that what I hate above all is the tendency of many of these self-declared "leftists" to happily defend, and even glorify, dictatorships and authoritarian regimes. In my view that's more of a betrayal of what the Left is/should be about than voting Tory.

[afleitch]

I should add that what I hate above all is the tendency of many of these self-declared "leftists" to happily defend, and even glorify, dictatorships and authoritarian regimes. In my view that's more of a betrayal of what the Left is/should be about than voting Tory.

Luckily it's the same circles and can be contained. The SWP mob and some left wing Labourites were positively extatic at the fall of the Shah in Iran. For me thats an historical lesson. What they failed to grasp is that the new Iran had no time for anyone but themselves and certainly not socialism and began the most hideous opression. Likewise the tendency of trade union international solidaity appears to have been lost on Israel and even the striking bus drivers in Iraq a while back were met with a wall of silence from many of the usual suspects.

However it is permeating leftist thought (as any trawl through the soundbite politics section of Waterstones will depressingly tell you) alongside possible (as it is too early to say and too difficult to confirm other than anecdotely) latent anti-semitism. I could also move into a stream of epitephs about the willing sub-ordination of some to illiberal clerical fascism reminiscent of the Iran situation but that would probably bore even me

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I wouldn't say he does. Besides, some of Labour's greatest have came from middle class backgrounds. Michael Foot's father was a solicitor, he went to an independent school and was president of the Oxford Union.

Foot's father (Isaac) was also a Liberal M.P. Attlee and Gaitskell came from similer backgrounds, while Stafford Cripps and the Benn's were richer still.
Even Harold Wilson wasn't working class; his background was almost stereotypical West Riding lower middle class (and later on he lived for years in Hampstead Garden Suburb).

[afleitch]

I wouldn't say he does. Besides, some of Labour's greatest have came from middle class backgrounds. Michael Foot's father was a solicitor, he went to an independent school and was president of the Oxford Union.

Foot's father (Isaac) was also a Liberal M.P. Attlee and Gaitskell came from similer backgrounds, while Stafford Cripps and the Benn's were richer still.
Even Harold Wilson wasn't working class; his background was almost stereotypical West Riding lower middle class (and later on he lived for years in Hampstead Garden Suburb).

Not to mention Smith, Dewar and to a lesser extent Irvine. They seemed to 'reinforce' each other while at Glasgow and forged quite poignant friendships with Edinburgh Tory 'contemporaries' like Rifkind (who came later) and Douglas-Hamilton. IIRC Menzies Campbell was at Glasgow the same time as Dewar and Smith. Sadly its an old art

[Serenity Now]

I should add that what I hate above all is the tendency of many of these self-declared "leftists" to happily defend, and even glorify, dictatorships and authoritarian regimes. In my view that's more of a betrayal of what the Left is/should be about than voting Tory.

Fair enough, I agree myself (but all kinds of leftists are to blame regardless of class ). I have no problem in principle with bringing down dictatorships, even through military means. My problem with situations like Iraq is due to more specific circumstances.. To be honest, elements of the Iraq war made it more just than most other wars Britain has participated in (like the one it was effectively the conclusion to).

But anyway, you've answered my question

[Serenity Now]

I should add that what I hate above all is the tendency of many of these self-declared "leftists" to happily defend, and even glorify, dictatorships and authoritarian regimes. In my view that's more of a betrayal of what the Left is/should be about than voting Tory.

Luckily it's the same circles and can be contained. The SWP mob and some left wing Labourites were positively extatic at the fall of the Shah in Iran. For me thats an historical lesson. What they failed to grasp is that the new Iran had no time for anyone but themselves and certainly not socialism and began the most hideous oppression. Likewise the tendency of trade union international solidaity appears to have been lost on Israel and even the striking bus drivers in Iraq a while back were met with a wall of silence from many of the usual suspects.

However it is permeating leftist thought (as any trawl through the soundbite politics section of Waterstones will depressingly tell you) alongside possible (as it is too early to say and too difficult to confirm other than anecdotely) latent anti-semitism. I could also move into a stream of epitephs about the willing sub-ordination of some to illiberal clerical fascism reminiscent of the Iran situation but that would probably bore even me

The SWP are just idiots full stop, they detract legitimacy from protest movements just by showing up.. But I don't feel guilty by association anyway..

On the issue of the fall of the Shah in Iran, imagine how annoyed they'd be to hear me say that the Islamist revolution was every bit as terrible as (if not worse than) the (US-backed) coup that put the Shah there in the first place..

They only welcomed the revolution as the Islamists were the enemy of their enemy (the US-backed Shah) and therefore somehow their friends. I think that way of thinking is really dumb..

[Serenity Now]

I was never quite comfortable in ether setting and I've always been irked by the use of class to deny or to grant access to anything. A narrowminded and misplaced 'working class pride' can be as damaging and as limiting as middle class elitism.

I agree. I have had similar experiences in that I went only through state school and got called "posh" while there, while also being looked down upon by people who more conveniently fitted the posh public schoolboy stereotype..

[Tetro Kornbluth]

In Ireland the hypocrisy was even worse, not only was our Stop the War led not only by the SWP (which is just as bad as in Britain, if not even more comical due to it's contest disputes with the JPF socialist party, but also Sinn Fein and many Irish Republicans were leading the Anti-war charge. Now a peace rally led by the IRA, that's something to behold..