Nick Cohen and Johann Hari...

[Serenity Now]

P.S: Al, have you read the book?

Bits. And I've agreed with most of those bits.

Will probably buy it (and then read the whole thing) fairly soon; I've not done so yet (despite attacks on middle class trendy-lefties being music to my ears) because I can't quite stop thinking of Cohen as being the hard-left oddball he was a few years ago.

He still is an oddball, he is only really respected now by people who wouldn't agree with him about much other than that he slags off the right people (e.g. the anti-war lobby), and also by those on the left who can overlook his stance on the Iraq war to issues on which he provides a more sensible contribution.

Also, I have a query regarding remarks about "middle class trendy-lefties" like those you make sometimes:

Is your problem with them based on the assumption that if one is middle class then one cannot be genuinely left-wing, and only therefore must being doing it only because it's trendy"?". Is the problem that they are middle class, or that they are leftie or trendy?

If it is the last one I agree, given there are loads of people whose leftism is so obviously an ill thought out image (e.g. a certain sex-obsessed poster from MN who seems to be moving in a path that will become similar to Cohen's IMO).

However, sometimes I worry that you actually believe that someone from a middle-class background cannot be left-wing, and almost imply that you'd rather they be on the right..

(Apologies if any of that sounded rude)

[Serenity Now]

I should add that what I hate above all is the tendency of many of these self-declared "leftists" to happily defend, and even glorify, dictatorships and authoritarian regimes. In my view that's more of a betrayal of what the Left is/should be about than voting Tory.

Fair enough, I agree myself (but all kinds of leftists are to blame regardless of class ). I have no problem in principle with bringing down dictatorships, even through military means. My problem with situations like Iraq is due to more specific circumstances.. To be honest, elements of the Iraq war made it more just than most other wars Britain has participated in (like the one it was effectively the conclusion to).

But anyway, you've answered my question

[Serenity Now]

I should add that what I hate above all is the tendency of many of these self-declared "leftists" to happily defend, and even glorify, dictatorships and authoritarian regimes. In my view that's more of a betrayal of what the Left is/should be about than voting Tory.

Luckily it's the same circles and can be contained. The SWP mob and some left wing Labourites were positively extatic at the fall of the Shah in Iran. For me thats an historical lesson. What they failed to grasp is that the new Iran had no time for anyone but themselves and certainly not socialism and began the most hideous oppression. Likewise the tendency of trade union international solidaity appears to have been lost on Israel and even the striking bus drivers in Iraq a while back were met with a wall of silence from many of the usual suspects.

However it is permeating leftist thought (as any trawl through the soundbite politics section of Waterstones will depressingly tell you) alongside possible (as it is too early to say and too difficult to confirm other than anecdotely) latent anti-semitism. I could also move into a stream of epitephs about the willing sub-ordination of some to illiberal clerical fascism reminiscent of the Iran situation but that would probably bore even me

The SWP are just idiots full stop, they detract legitimacy from protest movements just by showing up.. But I don't feel guilty by association anyway..

On the issue of the fall of the Shah in Iran, imagine how annoyed they'd be to hear me say that the Islamist revolution was every bit as terrible as (if not worse than) the (US-backed) coup that put the Shah there in the first place..

They only welcomed the revolution as the Islamists were the enemy of their enemy (the US-backed Shah) and therefore somehow their friends. I think that way of thinking is really dumb..

[Serenity Now]

I was never quite comfortable in ether setting and I've always been irked by the use of class to deny or to grant access to anything. A narrowminded and misplaced 'working class pride' can be as damaging and as limiting as middle class elitism.

I agree. I have had similar experiences in that I went only through state school and got called "posh" while there, while also being looked down upon by people who more conveniently fitted the posh public schoolboy stereotype..