Who was responsible for the holocaust?
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  Who was responsible for the holocaust?
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Poll
Question: See above
#1
Germans
 
#2
The Nazis
 
#3
OMG JEWKKKISH CONSPIRACY!!!111
 
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Partisan results

Total Voters: 83

Author Topic: Who was responsible for the holocaust?  (Read 34913 times)
Tetro Kornbluth
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« on: August 03, 2007, 07:49:01 PM »

Note: When I mean "Germans" I refer to the majority of the German adult populace, regardless of class or status, but not members of the NSDAP or the goverment . When I refer to "Nazis" I mean the German goverment of 1933-1945 and all it's apparatus, including the whole NSDAP.

I vote Option one.
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Friz
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« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2007, 07:56:16 PM »

Walt Disney.
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Speed of Sound
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« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2007, 08:17:24 PM »

Well, you cant blame the people for a cleverly crafted propaganda campaign. It is the Nazis fault, through and through.
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Colin
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« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2007, 08:24:07 PM »

The German people. Genocide cannot happen unless it is supported by a good number of people. Whether this is Rwanda or Germany, Sudan or Somalia. There has to be an underlying support for the genociders and their ideas. I'm sorry Germans but I don't believe that there could have been a Holocaust or a Nazi regime without your quiet acceptance of the policies that were put into place.
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Undisguised Sockpuppet
Straha
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« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2007, 08:25:44 PM »

Nazis
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DanielX
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« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2007, 08:33:37 PM »

Options 1 and 2.
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angus
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« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2007, 09:06:08 PM »

George W. Bush, of course.
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jfern
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« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2007, 09:18:55 PM »


Clinton's fault, fool.
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SPC
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« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2007, 11:08:32 PM »

Directly or indirectly? If you mean directly, then it would be the Nazis. But, if you mean indirectly, then it would be Woodrow Wilson and Fraklin Delano Roosevelt. Wilson is indirectly responsible for the Holocaust because his unfair Verssailes Treaty led to a radical like Adolf Hitler getting elected in Germany. FDR was also responsible because he provoked Japan to attack us, thus getting the U.S. into World War II. Hitler's original plan was to send the Jews to Madagascar, but when FDR declared war against Germany, Hitler responded by going to Plan B: Extermination.
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The Dowager Mod
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« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2007, 11:33:34 PM »

Fine i'll do it.
OMG!! PRESCOTT BUSH!!
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jfern
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« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2007, 11:56:28 PM »
« Edited: August 04, 2007, 12:01:28 AM by ○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└ »

Fine i'll do it.
OMG!! PRESCOTT BUSH!!

Let's remove a little hysteria and add some substance.

Prescott Bush, and his father in-law George Herbert Walker, had extensive business connections to Fritz Thyssen who agressively traded with and funded the Nazis since 1923. Bush's and Walker's company was busted trading military supplies to Nazi Germany 10 months after Pearl Harbor.

On the domestic front, Prescott Bush's father was an economic advisor to President Hoover. You can always count on the Bush family to screw things up for the rest of us.
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© tweed
Miamiu1027
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« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2007, 12:32:59 AM »

Martin Luther
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Person Man
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« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2007, 12:34:53 AM »


You know too much.
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KEmperor
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« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2007, 02:53:18 AM »

The Mexicans.
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Bono
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« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2007, 03:57:26 AM »

The German people. Genocide cannot happen unless it is supported by a good number of people. Whether this is Rwanda or Germany, Sudan or Somalia. There has to be an underlying support for the genociders and their ideas. I'm sorry Germans but I don't believe that there could have been a Holocaust or a Nazi regime without your quiet acceptance of the policies that were put into place.

What genocide happened in Somalia?
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Gustaf
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« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2007, 05:06:57 AM »

Darfur?

Anyhow, I think the question needs to be defined a little more. Do you mean fully responsible, mostly responsible, partly responsible? It seems that the point you're trying to make here is that the German people (of the time) do have to shoulder part of the blame for the Holocaust. With that I agree. However, the time to stop Hitler was really at a much earlier stage. Once the Holocaust actually got started in earnest, towards the end of WWII, it isn't really feasible to expect a people, during a time of war, after a decade of indoctrination and brainwashing, to rise up and protest against the treatment of a group they had been taught were their enemies. So, if we're talking about who has to carry most of the burden of responsibility for the Holocaust, it's the Nazis, under the above definition.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2007, 06:07:54 AM »

Darfur's in Sudan.

Darfur?

Anyhow, I think the question needs to be defined a little more. Do you mean fully responsible, mostly responsible, partly responsible? It seems that the point you're trying to make here is that the German people (of the time) do have to shoulder part of the blame for the Holocaust. With that I agree. However, the time to stop Hitler was really at a much earlier stage. Once the Holocaust actually got started in earnest, towards the end of WWII, it isn't really feasible to expect a people, during a time of war, after a decade of indoctrination and brainwashing, to rise up and protest against the treatment of a group they had been taught were their enemies. So, if we're talking about who has to carry most of the burden of responsibility for the Holocaust, it's the Nazis, under the above definition.


There is no doubt about the truth of that, but what one must note is that Hitler's ideas on Jewish people (and other 'inferiors' plus his foreign policy) were well out in the open well before 1933 (one only has to read Mein Kampf). And in the end, who gave Hitler his power in the first place. Many members of the NSDAP by the time of the holocaust would probably never have been members if it were not the party in power. Individual careerism took hold. One only has to look at Eichmann.

Btw, I mean "who is more responsible, or who should take the responibility".

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Gustaf
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« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2007, 06:35:07 AM »

Darfur's in Sudan.

Darfur?

Anyhow, I think the question needs to be defined a little more. Do you mean fully responsible, mostly responsible, partly responsible? It seems that the point you're trying to make here is that the German people (of the time) do have to shoulder part of the blame for the Holocaust. With that I agree. However, the time to stop Hitler was really at a much earlier stage. Once the Holocaust actually got started in earnest, towards the end of WWII, it isn't really feasible to expect a people, during a time of war, after a decade of indoctrination and brainwashing, to rise up and protest against the treatment of a group they had been taught were their enemies. So, if we're talking about who has to carry most of the burden of responsibility for the Holocaust, it's the Nazis, under the above definition.


There is no doubt about the truth of that, but what one must note is that Hitler's ideas on Jewish people (and other 'inferiors' plus his foreign policy) were well out in the open well before 1933 (one only has to read Mein Kampf). And in the end, who gave Hitler his power in the first place. Many members of the NSDAP by the time of the holocaust would probably never have been members if it were not the party in power. Individual careerism took hold. One only has to look at Eichmann.

Btw, I mean "who is more responsible, or who should take the responibility".



Oh...see, I know very well that Darfur is in Sudan, but I read Sudan in the original post and then thought I read Sudan in Bono's post. Now I echo his sentiment; though I suppose Colin was referring to the stuff going on a decade ago I don't think it quite qualifies as a genocide.

I understand your reasoning but I disagree that the Holocaust was obvious as early as the early 30s. After all, Hitler himself only decided on it in the 40s. And I don't quite think that one can call on people to have that much foresight. I would still maintain that the "Nazis" in this example has to be viewed as being more responsible. If you take WWII instead of the Holocaust though I'd be inclined to agree with you.
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MasterJedi
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« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2007, 08:59:03 AM »

The Nazis who brainwashed the German people and made them indirectly responsible.
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Colin
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« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2007, 11:32:10 AM »

The German people. Genocide cannot happen unless it is supported by a good number of people. Whether this is Rwanda or Germany, Sudan or Somalia. There has to be an underlying support for the genociders and their ideas. I'm sorry Germans but I don't believe that there could have been a Holocaust or a Nazi regime without your quiet acceptance of the policies that were put into place.

What genocide happened in Somalia?

There wasn't one. I was at a loss for genocides comitted, I guess I could have said the Armenian genocide now that I think of it, so I just picked a country that was pretty f**ked up like Somalia.
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Middle-aged Europe
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« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2007, 02:39:49 PM »
« Edited: August 04, 2007, 03:42:10 PM by Rock Strongo (aka Lance Uppercut) »

And in the end, who gave Hitler his power in the first place.

Answer: Paul von Hindenburg.

He appointed Hitler Chancellor. Beginning in 1930, Germany was ruled by presidential decrees under Article 48 (the so-called "emergency clause") of the Weimar constution. Since that time the German Chancellor and his cabinet were neither elected by nor resonsible to the Reichstag or the respective majorities there.

Of course, Hitler would have never been appointed Chancellor in the first place without NSDAP election results in the range of 30% to 40%, which made it practically impossible to put an effective government together without him... or at least that's the conclusion Hindenburg and his advisors came to in 1933 (the perceived rise of the communist KPD played also a role, of course). They also thought that they'd be able to keep Hitler in check somehow, which was the second mistake they made.

About a year after that, Hindenburg died of old age. At that point, Hitler had become so powerful, that it was pretty easy for him to simply merge the offices of president and chancellor into the newly created position of Führer.

So much to the question who gave Hitler his power: President Hindenburg, some of his key allies/advisors, and the 30% to 40% of the electorate who voted for the NSDAP in the final Reichstag elections. Also somewhat responsible are the not-as-bad-as-Hitler-but-still-Mussolini/Franco-level-bad DNVP and the catholic Zentrum party, who voted in favour of Hitler's Enabling Act in the Reichstag, which made everything what followed possible.

Of course, after Hitler had consolidated his power, he became quite popular among the German population, which could at least partially be contributed to the fact that the unemployment rate steadily declined during the 1930ies (the enormous unemployment rate after 1929 being the reason why the NSDAP started to fare that well in elections in the first place) as well as the fact that Germany didn't "bow down" to the "demands" of the League of Nations, France, Great Britain, or any other nation anymore.... among other things.


However, the question of this thread is, whose responsibility the Holocaust was.

Answer to that: Option 1 (sort of) and Option 2. Whether a "majority" of Option 1 could be held responsible for the Holocaust is a matter of definition of the terms "responsible" and "majority". Voted option 2, since there's no doubt, that they were reponsible under any definition.
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Undisguised Sockpuppet
Straha
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« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2007, 03:04:59 PM »

Who are the retards who voted for "jewish conspriacy"
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they don't love you like i love you
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« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2007, 03:32:43 PM »

The German people. Genocide cannot happen unless it is supported by a good number of people. Whether this is Rwanda or Germany, Sudan or Somalia. There has to be an underlying support for the genociders and their ideas. I'm sorry Germans but I don't believe that there could have been a Holocaust or a Nazi regime without your quiet acceptance of the policies that were put into place.

What genocide happened in Somalia?

There wasn't one. I was at a loss for genocides comitted, I guess I could have said the Armenian genocide now that I think of it, so I just picked a country that was pretty f**ked up like Somalia.

Should've said Bosnia instead.
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angus
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« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2007, 09:40:54 PM »

And in the end, who gave Hitler his power in the first place.

Answer: Paul von Hindenburg.


If we're gonna take that tac, let's pin it on Otto von Bismarck.  It was because of that old Prussian fart and his spectacular unification scheme that the Germans learned to put all their trust in one man.  He did achieve peace in what would become the German Empire for nearly three decades.  Or why not just blame the "Allies" (i.e., Limeys, Yanks, and Frogs) who gave the krauts such a raw deal on that boxcar after WWI, and made it so easy for nationalistic types to rally high school students in their undying love for der Führer and his master race.  Or why not blame Neville Chamberlain.  After all, Churchillians blame him for the invasion of poland and the war, and if it weren't for the subjugation of Silesia, all those gas chambers wouldn't have been built in Silesia in the first place.

Who killed the kikes?  Wo killed the kennedys?  Who put the bop in bop-she-bop?  Here's a clue:  you and me, baby.  there's no evil that we didn't create. 

"I rode a tank
Held a generals rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank.

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name.
Ah, whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game.

I watched with glee
While your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the gods they made
I shouted out,
Who killed the kennedys?
When after all
It was you and me"

  --Rolling stones
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Bacon King
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« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2007, 02:00:56 AM »

The Nazis were directly responsible, but the German people allowed it to happen. Look at the success of the Rosenstrasse protest- had a significant number of Germans protested the deportation of Jewish people, it's feasible that the Holocaust could have been severely mitigated.
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