People's Referendum Amendment [Failed]

[Sam Spade]

For Jas:  This bill goes into spot number two:


People’s Referendum Amendment

Article 1, Section 3, Clause 5 of the Atlasian Constitution shall be created to read as follows:

Whensoever legislation becomes officially enacted, any citizen may submit for a national referendum to be held on the legislation. To do so, he must:

(a) create a new thread (entitled with the name of the legislation in question) containing the Act as signed by the President and stating the wish that a national referendum be held on the Act;

(b) receive the signatures of 20% of the registered citizens of Atlasia within 7 days of creating the thread.

When these requirements are met and verified by the Secretary of Forum Affairs, the Secretary shall organise a special referendum on the legislation on the next weekend falling not less than 4 days from the date on which he verified that the above requirements were met.

The question put to he people shall be a simple approval or disapproval of the legislation. A simple majority of the people voting against the legislation shall render it null and void.

(Sponsor: Ebowed)

[King]

This is an interesting idea.

How about instead of 20% of the total population that it be done through regions?  Like if one region passes a resolution calling for a referenda and another region passes a resolution concur, then it qualifies for a National Referendum.  It'd give the regions another interesting power and I think that would be good and fun.

[SPC]

While I like the idea of voters proposing laws, I will oppose this in its current form, as this is just direct democracy. I would rther go by King's method and have it proposed by the indivudual regions, if at all. On the other hand, I believe it is the job of the Senators to serve their constituents.

[Sam Spade]

I oppose this amendment.

[DownWithTheLeft]

This really isn't a problem facing us as long as we have active senators, someone can just ask me to propose a bill, it's much easier

[Јas]

For Jas:  This bill goes into spot number two:

Thanks

This is an interesting idea.

How about instead of 20% of the total population that it be done through regions?  Like if one region passes a resolution calling for a referenda and another region passes a resolution concur, then it qualifies for a National Referendum.  It'd give the regions another interesting power and I think that would be good and fun.

A very good idea

Would a Senator be so kind as to introduce the following amendment (ideally as a friendly amendment) -

That the amendment be changed to read as follows:
Article 1, Section 3, Clause 5 of the Atlasian Constitution shall be created to read as follows:

Whence legislation becomes officially enacted, a national referendum shall be held on the legislation whensoever 3 regions pass resolutions calling for such a referendum within 2 months of the passage of said legislation.

When the Secretary of Forum Affairs recieves notification from at least 3 Governors that such resolutions have been passed, the Secretary shall organise a special referendum on the legislation on the next weekend falling not less than 4 days from the date on which he verified that the above requirements were met.

The question put to he people shall be a simple approval or disapproval of the legislation. A simple majority of the people voting against the legislation shall render it null and void.

[Јas]

This really isn't a problem facing us as long as we have active senators, someone can just ask me to propose a bill, it's much easier

But this is to overrule a bill passed, not to propose legislation (that's a different part of the forum affair's agenda).

[Colin]

I believe it is easy to see why I am for this. Not only would it increase voter participation in the government of Atlasia and give those people who are not currently Senators some ability to have control over the legislation that governs them. The problem with Atlasia, now, is the lack of voter participation and the feeling of estrangement between the people and the Senate. The only way this can be rectified is by bringing the Senate to the people and allowing them the chance to make decisions based upon their own views of how they would want to be governed.

The system proposed, actually, is quite close to what is used in the Swiss system, for a real world equivalent. I also support addition of a regional aspect to the signatures that Jas has now propoesd.

[Sam Spade]

Why, Mr. President, should we give a check on Senatorial powers to the legions of dead red avatar voters that presently populate our midst?  That is precisely what this amendment will do. 

It is enough that we have to deal with them every election, but with this amendment any controversial bill that may pass this assembly will be subject to someone's GOTV effort.

I can possibly live with the President having a check on Senatorial powers, but I will not live with people who post here once every two or four months having a check on Senatorial powers.  This is not Switzerland.

[King]

To balance out this regional power, how about we give the Senate an additional power?  Such as making it easier for regions to be redrawn by the Senate?

[DownWithTheLeft]

If this bill is to take away power for the senate, something we very little of to begin with due to the threat of a veto I wholeheartedly oppose, what is the purpose of having an elected senate if any law they make can simply be thrown out by the president or the people?  If this bill, however, were to state that the law could be voided if agree upon by three out of the five regions, I would consider supporting it.  However, I think that giving omnipotent power to heavily populated regions like the Northeast would be a disadvantage to a small populated region such as the Mideast.

[Colin]

Why, Mr. President, should we give a check on Senatorial powers to the legions of dead red avatar voters that presently populate our midst?  That is precisely what this amendment will do.

Oh yes the red avatar squad again. Please the current crop of voters is much better than any we've had previously in Atlasian history. The Northeast used to be completely full of such dead and inactive voters, need I remind you of The Bulldog and how I almost lost my first campaign to a troll named Josh, but now most of that weight has been shed. I would like to ask how many of these voters do you believe we currently have?

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I took a look at the registered voter role. Out of those people who actually voted in the last election I counted 6 who I would consider "red avatar squad". Six voters spread throughout the entirity of Atlasia. Are you seriously saying that we should build a wall of seperation between the people and the government just so six people whose voting rights you do not like should be kept from voting on serious matters? Sam, if you think there is a major problem with dead accounts in Atlasia then please tighten the restrictions on activity again. Don't reduce the amount of say that active and informed Atlasians have in their government just because of the inactivity and voting patterns of a certain small group of individuals.

If this bill is to take away power for the senate, something we very little of to begin

That's histarical. Sorry to burst your bubble DWTL but you can't really play the victim in this situation. The Presidency is impotent, the regions are moribund, the court only intervenes seldomly, who else could have the power, who else is running Atlasia, besides the Senate? The Senate has been the main power in Atlasia since the first True Democrat presidency and still has much more power than any other branch or section of the Atlasian government.

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Huh? I'm sorry but could someone tell me what you're trying to say here?

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Well this isn't about laws being voided but about laws being put before the people in a referendum where the actual voters of Atlasia will be able to decide whether to approve the vote or to vote it down. As Jas' amendment states to actually have a referendum on the legislation a majority of the people in three regions would have to support a motion to hold a referendum. So, at least when it comes to whether or not to hold the referendum, the regional aspect is already taken into account.

[Јas]

Why, Mr. President, should we give a check on Senatorial powers to the legions of dead red avatar voters that presently populate our midst?  That is precisely what this amendment will do. 

It is enough that we have to deal with them every election, but with this amendment any controversial bill that may pass this assembly will be subject to someone's GOTV effort.

Dead red avatar voters? Really?
I don't think that such a legion truly exists in Atlasia today. And even if there are some such people on the voter rolls, they are hardly regular voters and certainly not controlling Atlasian election outcomes - there are more than enough Senators who one would think would be anathema to their ideals present in the chamber.

(I would support a tightening of the voter rolls, btw - though when I tried to do such in a previous Senate, I encountered considerable difficulty.)

If this bill is to take away power for the senate, something we very little of to begin with due to the threat of a veto I wholeheartedly oppose,

I'm going to need further explanation on this. As far as I can see the Senate is the only body with any power. Plus, just how many vetoes have you encountered during your time in the Senate?

what is the purpose of having an elected senate if any law they make can simply be thrown out by the president or the people?  If this bill, however, were to state that the law could be voided if agree upon by three out of the five regions, I would consider supporting it.  However, I think that giving omnipotent power to heavily populated regions like the Northeast would be a disadvantage to a small populated region such as the Mideast.

To void a bill, (assuming the Senate accepts the amendment I wish to be put forward) three regions would have to motion for a referendum and then a majority of people would have to vote against the bill - it's hardly likely to lead to an overriding of all Senate business, nor do I see how it conveys any overdue power to any particular region.


This proposal aims (as part of the broader package of initiatives) to increase the ordinary Atlasian citizen's awareness of Senate ongoings and general participation. It will hopefully (should the amendment be put forward and passed) lead to an increase in regional activity also - something that has suffered greatly over the past year.

[Sam Spade]

To balance out this regional power, how about we give the Senate an additional power?  Such as making it easier for regions to be redrawn by the Senate?

This is not an increase in regional power since the approval would be made through national vote, not regional vote.

EDIT:  I see that Jas' amendment changes it to 3 regions.  I really don't see where that gives the regions that much power either.

[Sam Spade]

Why, Mr. President, should we give a check on Senatorial powers to the legions of dead red avatar voters that presently populate our midst?  That is precisely what this amendment will do.

Oh yes the red avatar squad again. Please the current crop of voters is much better than any we've had previously in Atlasian history. The Northeast used to be completely full of such dead and inactive voters, need I remind you of The Bulldog and how I almost lost my first campaign to a troll named Josh, but now most of that weight has been shed. I would like to ask how many of these voters do you believe we currently have?

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I took a look at the registered voter role. Out of those people who actually voted in the last election I counted 6 who I would consider "red avatar squad". Six voters spread throughout the entirity of Atlasia. Are you seriously saying that we should build a wall of seperation between the people and the government just so six people whose voting rights you do not like should be kept from voting on serious matters? Sam, if you think there is a major problem with dead accounts in Atlasia then please tighten the restrictions on activity again. Don't reduce the amount of say that active and informed Atlasians have in their government just because of the inactivity and voting patterns of a certain small group of individuals.

Look, we are elected by Senators for a reason - to represent our constituents.  This amendment essentially takes away that power and replaces it with mob rule.  The requirement of one citizen saying no and 20% agreeing with him is an easy requirement to meet.  Similarly, the support of a majority of constituents voting or a majority of Regions supporting is an easier requirement to meet than mere cloture in the Senate.

Moreover, I'm not going to get into an argument as to "how many" dead red avatar voters exist on the rolls or whether their numbers are greater now than they were when you were first elected - my contention deals with the fact that in this system even 1 dead red avatar can change the vote of the Senate and if the vote was divided up Regionally it would still only take 3 dead red avatar voters to change.  I will point out that there are more than six voters that qualify under those terms in one Region alone, not merely nationally.

[Ebowed]

I motion to replace the text of the legislation with the following (in a friendly fashion):

Article 1, Section 3, Clause 5 of the Atlasian Constitution shall be created to read as follows:

Whence legislation becomes officially enacted, a national referendum shall be held on the legislation whensoever 3 regions pass resolutions calling for such a referendum within 2 months of the passage of said legislation.

When the Secretary of Forum Affairs recieves notification from at least 3 Governors that such resolutions have been passed, the Secretary shall organise a special referendum on the legislation on the next weekend falling not less than 4 days from the date on which he verified that the above requirements were met.

The question put to the people shall be a simple approval or disapproval of the legislation. A simple majority of the people voting against the legislation shall render it null and void.

[Keystone Phil]

I don't think we have the participation levels that are high enough for regular elections, let alone attempts for a referendum. I will be opposing this amendment.

[Ebowed]

I don't think we have the participation levels that are high enough for regular elections, let alone attempts for a referendum.

Perhaps we should cancel the next few elections, then.  That will take care of the plotting dead red avatar squad.

I'm curious as to how the presence of some inactive members on the voter rolls is grounds to oppose.  It drives up the amount of support necessary to get a petition signed, and it's not like people who are truly that inactive will be influencing referenda on legislative issues.  If they're more active than you guys are giving them credit for, which I think they might be, having more elections will drive up participation and allow for more reason to look into the Atlasian process.  If people can challenge what happens in the Senate, they have more reason to check up on what we're doing in here.  That isn't a bad thing.

[Јas]

I don't think we have the participation levels that are high enough for regular elections, let alone attempts for a referendum. I will be opposing this amendment.

This amendment is an attempt to increase voter interest in Senate affairs and encourage participation in the legislative process. It will hopefully encourage an occasional campaign in the Elections Board beyond the normal election contests.

I would urge you to reconsider.

If people can challenge what happens in the Senate, they have more reason to check up on what we're doing in here.  That isn't a bad thing.

Exactly (And thanks for introducing the amendment.)

[Sam Spade]

This amendment is motioned as a friendly amendment:

I motion to replace the text of the legislation with the following (in a friendly fashion):

Article 1, Section 3, Clause 5 of the Atlasian Constitution shall be created to read as follows:

Whence legislation becomes officially enacted, a national referendum shall be held on the legislation whensoever 3 regions pass resolutions calling for such a referendum within 2 months of the passage of said legislation.

When the Secretary of Forum Affairs recieves notification from at least 3 Governors that such resolutions have been passed, the Secretary shall organise a special referendum on the legislation on the next weekend falling not less than 4 days from the date on which he verified that the above requirements were met.

The question put to the people shall be a simple approval or disapproval of the legislation. A simple majority of the people voting against the legislation shall render it null and void.

If any Senator wishes to object, please do so in the next 24 hours.

[minionofmidas]

I prefer the original version. I object.

[PBrunsel]

I prefer the original version. I object.

I stand with the honorable Senator from the Midwest on this. I feel the original version is better.

[Sam Spade]

Ok, with two objections, we are moving to a vote on following amendment:

Article 1, Section 3, Clause 5 of the Atlasian Constitution shall be created to read as follows:

Whence legislation becomes officially enacted, a national referendum shall be held on the legislation whensoever 3 regions pass resolutions calling for such a referendum within 2 months of the passage of said legislation.

When the Secretary of Forum Affairs recieves notification from at least 3 Governors that such resolutions have been passed, the Secretary shall organise a special referendum on the legislation on the next weekend falling not less than 4 days from the date on which he verified that the above requirements were met.

The question put to the people shall be a simple approval or disapproval of the legislation. A simple majority of the people voting against the legislation shall render it null and void.

Please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.


Aye.

[Ebowed]

Aye

[Keystone Phil]

I don't think we have the participation levels that are high enough for regular elections, let alone attempts for a referendum.

Perhaps we should cancel the next few elections, then.  That will take care of the plotting dead red avatar squad.

Which would then result in the end of the government. We can, and will, survive without this amendment.

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You've misunderstood me. I'm not saying that because there are inactive voters that we can't pass this amendment. I'm saying that this is not worth our time if there isn't enough participation overall.