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« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2004, 06:01:35 am »
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I would say that the real problem for the Tories is ratehr that Labour under Blair has moved so much towards the centre that the Tories have been forced out on the right-winged fringes to maintain an identity. Moderate right-wingers vote Labour and te Tories are stuck with too Conservative members who are out of touch with the general electorate.
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« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2004, 06:04:33 am »
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I think the reason the Tories don't win elections is because they are too much on the left. That disencourages their tradicional electorate who either votes for the BNP or the UKIP, or does not vote at all. They should come up with a Project to Return Morals to British Life. Cheesy
Also, they should be much more vocal in their opositon of the EU's ever-increasing regultaions, which are strangling the european economy everywhere, as Milton Friedman warned recently, and they should also be more vocal oposing Blair's increasing statism and defending personal intiative.
I totally disaprove of Blair, he is blatant statist. the only good thing he's ever done was devolution, but that should go farther. More powers should be returned to the counties.

What's that called? "Third Party by 2005" perhaps?

That's preferable than selling out to statism. And would be win back the votes the BNP and the UKIP have previously "stolen" from the Tories.

Call me right wing nut if you want. THe future will prove me right. Britain has started to go down the slipery path of statism. The right muse to take her back.
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« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2004, 06:27:05 am »
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I think the reason the Tories don't win elections is because they are too much on the left. That disencourages their tradicional electorate who either votes for the BNP or the UKIP, or does not vote at all. They should come up with a Project to Return Morals to British Life. Cheesy
Also, they should be much more vocal in their opositon of the EU's ever-increasing regultaions, which are strangling the european economy everywhere, as Milton Friedman warned recently, and they should also be more vocal oposing Blair's increasing statism and defending personal intiative.
I totally disaprove of Blair, he is blatant statist. the only good thing he's ever done was devolution, but that should go farther. More powers should be returned to the counties.

Er, wrong on all counts. The reason the Tories don't win elections is because Labour has stole the centre. The Tories responded to this by lurching to the right, by electing 3 right wingers to lead the party, Hague, IDS and Howard. Any sensible person would have chosen a moderate like Letwin, Portillo or Clark. 3 polititians who have been PROVED to be popular with the electorate!! Heavens, Clark is one of the most popular politicians in Britain! No, instead they chose Howard, the most hated man from Major's government. Not just hated, but a right-winger, who was never likely to win back the centre from Labour.
Your second error was suggesting the Tories should adopt a conservative moralizing social policy. WRONG! They tried this in the early/mid 90's with 'back to basics'. A few rich old people in Surrey liked it, the rest of the country hated it. This is not the US or Portugal, even social conservatives here don't like being told how to live their lives by government. Social conservatives like Anne Widdecombe and Norman Tebbit are hated intensely in Britain.
Your 3rd major error was suggesting people deserted the Tories for the BNP, yes, I'm sure some did, but most BNP voters are low-income, working class, dissaffected Labour voters. Their most successful areas are places like Burnley, a very deprived, old mill town in Lancashire. The BNP would barely register at all in the rural, wealthy south.
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« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2004, 06:34:31 am »
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That's preferable than selling out to statism. And would be win back the votes the BNP and the UKIP have previously "stolen" from the Tories.

Call me right wing nut if you want. THe future will prove me right. Britain has started to go down the slipery path of statism. The right muse to take her back.

Listen and listen good, the BNP have not stolen votes from the Tories! If you're going to use the UK avatar you might as well learn a little about UK politics! Most recent BNP victories have been in depressed old industrial towns in Northern England such as Burnley, Bradford and Halifax. Invariably they have high levels of deprivation and unemployment. These are strong Labour areas.
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« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2004, 06:46:15 am »
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That's preferable than selling out to statism. And would be win back the votes the BNP and the UKIP have previously "stolen" from the Tories.

Call me right wing nut if you want. THe future will prove me right. Britain has started to go down the slipery path of statism. The right muse to take her back.

Listen and listen good, the BNP have not stolen votes from the Tories! If you're going to use the UK avatar you might as well learn a little about UK politics! Most recent BNP victories have been in depressed old industrial towns in Northern England such as Burnley, Bradford and Halifax. Invariably they have high levels of deprivation and unemployment. These are strong Labour areas.

Generally BNP voters come from all three major parties... usually from sinkhole estates and "white flight" areas... they can't get much bigger in Burnley because most of the sinkhole estates are Asian and geography has limited the amount of "white flight".

In Stoke they cannot get any bigger as there vote comes almost entierly from a load of sinkhole estates in the south of the area... and they wouldn't even have any councillers if the LibDems didn't play silly buggers with racial politics and making absurd claims like they are the only party to beat the BNP (in a place like Stoke that's bullsh**t. The only party that can beat the BNP in Stoke is Labour)

Bradford is a worry... and it's the Tories fault for creating racial tensions by playing racial politics.

They are a spent force in Oldham.

I don't know the Halifax area well, but IIRC correctly it's like Burnley but not as poor... and with more white flight areas.

Labour have beaten the crap out of them in Sunderland two years in a row. They are finished up here.

I'm worried (very worried) about Essex tho'... now in Essex they *are* winning ex-Tory (ex-Essex Man actually) voters over.
I don't know Essex or it's voting patterns that well though.
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« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2004, 08:02:15 am »
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Yes, however these Essex voters are not natural Tory voters I'm sure you agree and many of them returned to Labour in 1997. There's no way places like Basildon, Dagenham, Barking & Tilbury could be considered Tory areas. In fact Labour held Dagenham & Barking even in 1983 and held Thurrock in 1997 with a 17,000 majority! Tory Essex is not BNP territory, it's the white working class Labour areas like Dagenham where the BNP are making inroads.
As for coming from all 3 major parties we'll have to agree to disagree. I know in Leeds and Hull, the BNP leaflet (and thankfully fail) in poor Labour areas with racial problems. Usually sink estates bordering ethnic areas. These sort of locations usually weigh Labour votes rather than count them. I'd say 40% of BNP voters previously never voted, however of those that did vote, 60% voted Labour, 30% voted Tory and 10% LD.
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« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2004, 08:10:35 am »
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I don't know the Halifax area well, but IIRC correctly it's like Burnley but not as poor... and with more white flight areas.

Labour have beaten the crap out of them in Sunderland two years in a row. They are finished up here.


The BNP held (hold?) the ward of Mixenden in Halifax, it's a complete sh*t-hole. It's a very, very grim area of sink council housing and nasty private slums cut off from the rest of the town. Actually Halifax is quite nice, affluent even, however there are some truly dire bits, Mixenden being one of them.
I can't imagine the BNP ever doing well in Sunderland, it's completely white isn't it?
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« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2004, 08:16:13 am »
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English,
Chill.
When i said that Morals stuff, I wasn't serious, I know it's a waste of time to try to improve Britain's terribly low moral standarts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the state of morals in the UK is terrible, sin't it? You must allmost take a vote of immorality to live there?
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« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2004, 09:40:38 am »
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English,
Chill.
When i said that Morals stuff, I wasn't serious, I know it's a waste of time to try to improve Britain's terribly low moral standarts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the state of morals in the UK is terrible, sin't it? You must allmost take a vote of immorality to live there?

It depends what you mean by 'low moral standards'. If you mean rudeness and selfishness, I'm afraid I'd agree with you. However if (as I suspect) you mean gay/minority and womans rights I'd obviously disagree.
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« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2004, 10:59:43 am »
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English,
Chill.
When i said that Morals stuff, I wasn't serious, I know it's a waste of time to try to improve Britain's terribly low moral standarts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the state of morals in the UK is terrible, sin't it? You must allmost take a vote of immorality to live there?

It depends what you mean by 'low moral standards'. If you mean rudeness and selfishness, I'm afraid I'd agree with you. However if (as I suspect) you mean gay/minority and womans rights I'd obviously disagree.

Neither is true. My measure of morality is: What percentage of sexual relations does uncomited sex represent? If it's more then 40%, it's allready bad.

P.S.--One night
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« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2004, 11:24:40 am »
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Well personally I agree with monogamy. The whole idea for me is to be with a person in a serious relationship. People who sleep around are just a bit pathetic really, they're obviously not mature enough to handle a relationship. Is this any worse in Britain than other nations? No, I wouldn't say so. I'm sure there are just as many promiscuous people in the US, Canada and France as there are in Britain.
Fundamentally however it's about choice. If people want to have sex with a different person every week, that's up to them. Who am I to tell someone how to live their life?
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« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2004, 11:48:59 am »
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Well personally I agree with monogamy. The whole idea for me is to be with a person in a serious relationship. People who sleep around are just a bit pathetic really, they're obviously not mature enough to handle a relationship. Is this any worse in Britain than other nations? No, I wouldn't say so. I'm sure there are just as many promiscuous people in the US, Canada and France as there are in Britain.
Fundamentally however it's about choice. If people want to have sex with a different person every week, that's up to them. Who am I to tell someone how to live their life?

I'd say it is, but I may have only a distorced view of Britain, coming from books and Tv shows. So remember, don't quote me on it.
You don't have to tell them how to live their lives.  Just give them little incentives to live morally. Cheesy
BTW, I forgot to mention the huge alcoholism rate and the drug consuption.

I'd say it is, but I may have only a distorced view of Britain, coming from books and Tv shows. So remember, don't quote me on it.
You don't have to tell them how to live their lives.  Just give them little incentives to live morally. Cheesy
BTW, I forgot to mention the huge alcoholism rate and the drug consuption.
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« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2004, 02:18:29 pm »
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Well personally I agree with monogamy. The whole idea for me is to be with a person in a serious relationship. People who sleep around are just a bit pathetic really, they're obviously not mature enough to handle a relationship. Is this any worse in Britain than other nations? No, I wouldn't say so. I'm sure there are just as many promiscuous people in the US, Canada and France as there are in Britain.
Fundamentally however it's about choice. If people want to have sex with a different person every week, that's up to them. Who am I to tell someone how to live their life?

I'd say it is, but I may have only a distorced view of Britain, coming from books and Tv shows. So remember, don't quote me on it.
You don't have to tell them how to live their lives.  Just give them little incentives to live morally. Cheesy

Surely Britain's problems should be left to the people of Britain to address? If I waltzed in here and said "Portugal's this, Portugese people are that, I've never been to Portugal but I read it in a book so it must be true" I bet you would absolutely hit the ROOF accusing me of xenophobia and nationalism and hatred and whatnot. But since you're the one doing the accusing it's perfectly alright, is it? There's a word for it. It's called hypocrisy.

Quote
BTW, I forgot to mention the huge alcoholism rate and the drug consuption.

Yes, uniquely British problems, I'm sure. Roll Eyes

But of course the very notion of perhaps asking WHY the majority of western nations are increasingly lacking in some kind of firm moral code would never occur to you. Perhaps it's due to growing materialism stemming from an increasingly unregulated form of Capitalism? Perhaps religious beliefs (et al) have become almost irrelevant in a social spectrum entirely geared towards the idea of increasing's one wealth and ultimately satisfying one's own achievements without any emphasis on our social conscience? Perhaps many of society's problems, such as the increasing crime rate, are in fact due to the very ideology free marketists have spawned?

It's very easy to berate other cultures. However, addressing the root of the problem and suggesting ways of improving the situation are much more difficult.
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« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2004, 02:39:15 pm »
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Well personally I agree with monogamy. The whole idea for me is to be with a person in a serious relationship. People who sleep around are just a bit pathetic really, they're obviously not mature enough to handle a relationship. Is this any worse in Britain than other nations? No, I wouldn't say so. I'm sure there are just as many promiscuous people in the US, Canada and France as there are in Britain.
Fundamentally however it's about choice. If people want to have sex with a different person every week, that's up to them. Who am I to tell someone how to live their life?

I'd say it is, but I may have only a distorced view of Britain, coming from books and Tv shows. So remember, don't quote me on it.
You don't have to tell them how to live their lives.  Just give them little incentives to live morally. Cheesy

Surely Britain's problems should be left to the people of Britain to address? If I waltzed in here and said "Portugal's this, Portugese people are that, I've never been to Portugal but I read it in a book so it must be true" I bet you would absolutely hit the ROOF accusing me of xenophobia and nationalism and hatred and whatnot. But since you're the one doing the accusing it's perfectly alright, is it? There's a word for it. It's called hypocrisy.8/quote]

Go create a thread about portuguses problems then. Yea, all those things happen in Portugal, just at a lesser degree. But this thread was allways about Britain.

Quote
Quote
BTW, I forgot to mention the huge alcoholism rate and the drug consuption.

Yes, uniquely British problems, I'm sure. Roll Eyes

But of course the very notion of perhaps asking WHY the majority of western nations are increasingly lacking in some kind of firm moral code would never occur to you. Perhaps it's due to growing materialism stemming from an increasingly unregulated form of Capitalism? Perhaps religious beliefs (et al) have become almost irrelevant in a social spectrum entirely geared towards the idea of increasing's one wealth and ultimately satisfying one's own achievements without any emphasis on our social conscience? Perhaps many of society's problems, such as the increasing crime rate, are in fact due to the very ideology free marketists have spawned?

No.
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« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2004, 03:36:40 pm »
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I don't know the Halifax area well, but IIRC correctly it's like Burnley but not as poor... and with more white flight areas.

Labour have beaten the crap out of them in Sunderland two years in a row. They are finished up here.


The BNP held (hold?) the ward of Mixenden in Halifax, it's a complete sh*t-hole. It's a very, very grim area of sink council housing and nasty private slums cut off from the rest of the town. Actually Halifax is quite nice, affluent even, however there are some truly dire bits, Mixenden being one of them.
I can't imagine the BNP ever doing well in Sunderland, it's completely white isn't it?


Yes, Sunderland is all but competely white... there was a fuss over some asylum seekers in the area or something... it's all died down now and the BNP did worse in 2004 than 2003 (they have never won a council seat though)
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« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2004, 03:46:43 pm »
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Yes, however these Essex voters are not natural Tory voters I'm sure you agree and many of them returned to Labour in 1997. There's no way places like Basildon, Dagenham, Barking & Tilbury could be considered Tory areas. In fact Labour held Dagenham & Barking even in 1983 and held Thurrock in 1997 with a 17,000 majority! Tory Essex is not BNP territory, it's the white working class Labour areas like Dagenham where the BNP are making inroads.
As for coming from all 3 major parties we'll have to agree to disagree. I know in Leeds and Hull, the BNP leaflet (and thankfully fail) in poor Labour areas with racial problems. Usually sink estates bordering ethnic areas. These sort of locations usually weigh Labour votes rather than count them. I'd say 40% of BNP voters previously never voted, however of those that did vote, 60% voted Labour, 30% voted Tory and 10% LD.

Traditionally South Essex (Thurrock, Basildon et al) is a Lab-Con swing area, the part of Essex in the GLA (Dagenham et al) is strongly Labour...
What's worried me in Essex, was that the BNP picked up (IIRC) 3 councillers in Epping Forest of all places...

The BNP's vote varies from region to region... in Stoke it's entirely driven by racial tensions and comes mostly from people that don't vote normally or Labour voters protest voting.
In most of Lancashire however, they win a lot of old style redneck Tory voters (most of their wards are white flight suburban areas that went Tory in the '80's).
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« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2004, 04:54:25 pm »
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Well personally I agree with monogamy. The whole idea for me is to be with a person in a serious relationship. People who sleep around are just a bit pathetic really, they're obviously not mature enough to handle a relationship. Is this any worse in Britain than other nations? No, I wouldn't say so. I'm sure there are just as many promiscuous people in the US, Canada and France as there are in Britain.
Fundamentally however it's about choice. If people want to have sex with a different person every week, that's up to them. Who am I to tell someone how to live their life?

I'd say it is, but I may have only a distorced view of Britain, coming from books and Tv shows. So remember, don't quote me on it.
You don't have to tell them how to live their lives.  Just give them little incentives to live morally. Cheesy

Surely Britain's problems should be left to the people of Britain to address? If I waltzed in here and said "Portugal's this, Portugese people are that, I've never been to Portugal but I read it in a book so it must be true" I bet you would absolutely hit the ROOF accusing me of xenophobia and nationalism and hatred and whatnot. But since you're the one doing the accusing it's perfectly alright, is it? There's a word for it. It's called hypocrisy.

Go create a thread about portuguses problems then. Yea, all those things happen in Portugal, just at a lesser degree. But this thread was allways about Britain.

Congratulations, you completely missed my point.

I was being HYPOTHETICAL. I am NOT going to address Portugese problems because I have respect for other cultures and don't see the need to constantly lecture them. The people of Portugal should deal with Portugal's problems just as the people of Britain should deal with Britain's problems. That's my point.

Besides, I don't know enough about Portugal to comment, just as you don't know enough about Britain to comment. I simply happen to know when not to punch above my weight (as the saying goes).

Quote
Quote
Quote
BTW, I forgot to mention the huge alcoholism rate and the drug consuption.

Yes, uniquely British problems, I'm sure. Roll Eyes

But of course the very notion of perhaps asking WHY the majority of western nations are increasingly lacking in some kind of firm moral code would never occur to you. Perhaps it's due to growing materialism stemming from an increasingly unregulated form of Capitalism? Perhaps religious beliefs (et al) have become almost irrelevant in a social spectrum entirely geared towards the idea of increasing's one wealth and ultimately satisfying one's own achievements without any emphasis on our social conscience? Perhaps many of society's problems, such as the increasing crime rate, are in fact due to the very ideology free marketists have spawned?

No.

How profound.
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« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2004, 04:08:01 am »
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Traditionally South Essex (Thurrock, Basildon et al) is a Lab-Con swing area, the part of Essex in the GLA (Dagenham et al) is strongly Labour...
What's worried me in Essex, was that the BNP picked up (IIRC) 3 councillers in Epping Forest of all places...

The BNP's vote varies from region to region... in Stoke it's entirely driven by racial tensions and comes mostly from people that don't vote normally or Labour voters protest voting.
In most of Lancashire however, they win a lot of old style redneck Tory voters (most of their wards are white flight suburban areas that went Tory in the '80's).

I really dislike South Essex. If Basildon or Thurrock was anywhere else it would be safely Labour. Have you ever been to Basildon? It's a tip. Huge council estates and nasty cheap private housing. They only vote Tory because they're the type of people who think moving to Essex from the East End means they've moved up in the world.
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« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2004, 04:20:07 am »
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I'd say it is, but I may have only a distorced view of Britain, coming from books and Tv shows. So remember, don't quote me on it.
You don't have to tell them how to live their lives.  Just give them little incentives to live morally. Cheesy
BTW, I forgot to mention the huge alcoholism rate and the drug consuption.


I have to say, you're incredibly ignorant. How can you comment about a place if your entire impression is based on watching TV shows and reading books? Britain is no different than anyother nation. You get scumbags and drug addicts everywhere. In fact I believe the drug addiction rate in Portugal was so bad, the government had to decriminalize them a few years ago! So I don't know how you dare lambast Britain for it's rate of drug consumption!
I think you should sort out your own country before castigating other people's.
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« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2004, 06:41:49 am »
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Traditionally South Essex (Thurrock, Basildon et al) is a Lab-Con swing area, the part of Essex in the GLA (Dagenham et al) is strongly Labour...
What's worried me in Essex, was that the BNP picked up (IIRC) 3 councillers in Epping Forest of all places...

The BNP's vote varies from region to region... in Stoke it's entirely driven by racial tensions and comes mostly from people that don't vote normally or Labour voters protest voting.
In most of Lancashire however, they win a lot of old style redneck Tory voters (most of their wards are white flight suburban areas that went Tory in the '80's).

I really dislike South Essex. If Basildon or Thurrock was anywhere else it would be safely Labour. Have you ever been to Basildon? It's a tip. Huge council estates and nasty cheap private housing. They only vote Tory because they're the type of people who think moving to Essex from the East End means they've moved up in the world.

True, very true. Basildon is the "Sun capital of Great Britain". Sun meaning the newspaper rag soft porn publication not a solar object...
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« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2004, 07:54:59 am »
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Essex also has the habit of electing right-wing bigots.
Teresa Gorman (Con- Billericay),
Teddy Taylor (Con- Southend East (or West?)),
...and not forgetting Lucifer himself....
Norman Tebbit (Con- Chingford),
IDS (also Con- Chingford).

There was also a fuss at the last election when the conservative cadidate in Brentwood and Ongar got accused of being cahoots with some christian right organisation.
Don't you just love Essex? The UK's answer to Texas!
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« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2004, 07:59:12 am »
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Essex also has the habit of electing right-wing bigots.
Teresa Gorman (Con- Billericay),
Teddy Taylor (Con- Southend East (or West?)),
...and not forgetting Lucifer himself....
Norman Tebbit (Con- Chingford),
IDS (also Con- Chingford).

There was also a fuss at the last election when the conservative cadidate in Brentwood and Ongar got accused of being cahoots with some christian right organisation.
Don't you just love Essex? The UK's answer to Texas!

...and it's basically a swamp...
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« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2004, 08:05:14 am »
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I'd hate to live there.
It must be the most reactionary county in Britain.

Even the accent is stupid....
Their int nahh mountayyyns in Issix, Innit!
(There aren't any mountains in Essex, are they?)
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« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2004, 03:45:10 pm »
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Essex also has the habit of electing right-wing bigots.
Teresa Gorman (Con- Billericay),
Teddy Taylor (Con- Southend East (or West?)),
...and not forgetting Lucifer himself....
Norman Tebbit (Con- Chingford),
IDS (also Con- Chingford).

Don't forget Andrew Rossindell. Probably my least favourite MP.

My opinion of Tebitt has actually softened of late. I think it's mainly due to his appearance on Question Time a few months ago, in which he made some very constructive remarks on the Israel/Palestine issue and, to my surprise, wholeheartedly welcomed EU expansion.

I'd hate to live there.
It must be the most reactionary county in Britain.

Even the accent is stupid....
Their int nahh mountayyyns in Issix, Innit!
(There aren't any mountains in Essex, are they?)

Oi! I do live in Northeast London, you know. Wink

Anyway, you're both right to a degree, but Essex isn't SO bad. It does have its reactionairy spots (Colchester, for instance) but by and large people tend to more down-to-earth and less stuck-up than in the rest of SE England. Go to East Anglia if you want to see some real uptight provincialism.

Also bear in mind that it's in places up north where the BNP are doing frighteningly well, so it's not like Essex doesn't have its fair share of contestants for the title of most reactionairy county.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2004, 03:57:32 pm by Michael Z »Logged
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« Reply #49 on: July 29, 2004, 04:53:53 pm »
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Anyway, you're both right to a degree, but Essex isn't SO bad. It does have its reactionairy spots (Colchester, for instance) but by and large people tend to more down-to-earth and less stuck-up than in the rest of SE England. Go to East Anglia if you want to see some real uptight provincialism.

Also bear in mind that it's in places up north where the BNP are doing frighteningly well, so it's not like Essex doesn't have its fair share of contestants for the title of most reactionairy county.

Thing is in most of Cottonopolis the BNP have peaked... while the NSDAP BNP's expansion into Essex (three councillers in Epping Forest. Ironically that used to be Churchill's seat) is new... and needs to be stopped before it hits Burnley levels.
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