I have a question for Atlas's pro-lifers..

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

Now I know that most pro-life people are like "life starts at conception". So what happens in the event of a miscarriage? so does the woman go to hell for "murdering her baby"? After all if life begins at conception a miscarried fetus DOEs have a soul...

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Now I know that most pro-life people are like "life starts at conception". So what happens in the event of a miscarriage? so does the woman go to hell for "murdering her baby"? After all if life begins at conception a miscarried fetus DOEs have a soul...

The woman didn't murder her baby.  If a baby dies of birth complications slightly after birth, it's not murder.  The morning after pill, if it terminates a fetus is murder, but not all murderers go to hell.

It depends if they are a Christian - and believe that God will save them.

And most people have already sinned by age 5, so a murder at age 18 would be sin # 10billion something.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

So you're saying that if a murderer repents 5 minutes before they go to the chair they go to heaven?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

So you're saying that if a murderer repents 5 minutes before they go to the chair they go to heaven?

If it's a TRUE repentence, then absolutely.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

So you're saying that if a murderer repents 5 minutes before they go to the chair they go to heaven?

If it's a TRUE repentence, then absolutely.

Then what's the point of eternal punishment for murder? I remember the 10 commandments saying "thou shalt not kill" as one...

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

So you're saying that if a murderer repents 5 minutes before they go to the chair they go to heaven?

If it's a TRUE repentence, then absolutely.

Then what's the point of eternal punishment for murder? I remember the 10 commandments saying "thou shalt not kill" as one...

Because if people don't repent of any of the commandments in the bible (not just the 10), they go to Hell for eternity - but if somebody repents, God promises to forgive them.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

So you're saying that if a murderer repents 5 minutes before they go to the chair they go to heaven?

If it's a TRUE repentence, then absolutely.

Then what's the point of eternal punishment for murder? I remember the 10 commandments saying "thou shalt not kill" as one...

Because if people don't repent of any of the commandments in the bible (not just the 10), they go to Hell for eternity - but if somebody repents, God promises to forgive them.

So basically mass murderers and dictators get a free pass for being Christian? So basically Hitler is in heaven but billions of decent people are burning in hell according to the Christian worldview? That's a pretty screwed up and offensive worldview then.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

So you're saying that if a murderer repents 5 minutes before they go to the chair they go to heaven?

If it's a TRUE repentence, then absolutely.

Then what's the point of eternal punishment for murder? I remember the 10 commandments saying "thou shalt not kill" as one...

Because if people don't repent of any of the commandments in the bible (not just the 10), they go to Hell for eternity - but if somebody repents, God promises to forgive them.

So basically mass murderers and dictators get a free pass for being Christian? So basically Hitler is in heaven but billions of decent people are burning in hell according to the Christian worldview? That's a pretty screwed up and offensive worldview then.

I doubt Hitler asked for forgiveness - because if he was truly sincere, he wouldn't have committed suicide - he'd have faced up to it.

And why did you start a thread if you asked it in another - there's 3 abortion threads - don't start trolling.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

There was no thread in which this specific question would fit in. That and I wanted a viewpoint from another pro-lifer besides you(since you're patrolling the abortion threads).

[Ebowed]

The morning after pill, if it terminates a fetus is murder

That's scientifically impossible.

Emergency contraception can prevent the implantation of a zygote into the uterus, but it cannot affect an embryo or fetus.  Pregnancy begins at implantation anyway, not conception.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

The morning after pill, if it terminates a fetus is murder

That's scientifically impossible.

Emergency contraception can prevent the implantation of a zygote into the uterus, but it cannot affect an embryo or fetus.  Pregnancy begins at implantation anyway, not conception.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Saxwsylvania]

  Salvation is not simply "believing" in Jesus, nor can a person be saved simply by acknowledging that Jesus died for his sins.  Rather, salvation happens when one receives the Holy Spirit, when one accepts Christ as his personal savior.  From there, it is a regenerative process, as the sinner becomes more Christ-like with the help of the spirit.  Therefore, it is not works, but faith, that saves.  Anyone who confesses that they have accepted Christ as their savior, but has no good works to point to, is a liar and a fraud.

Whether or not Hitler is in Heaven is a matter between him and God, but given the fact that he murdered millions of people, was extremely cruel and profoundly un-Christlike in behavior, it is a safe bet to say that he was not saved from Hell.

[DanielX]

Now I know that most pro-life people are like "life starts at conception". So what happens in the event of a miscarriage? so does the woman go to hell for "murdering her baby"? After all if life begins at conception a miscarried fetus DOEs have a soul...

Its "murder" in the sense being struck by lightning or dying from meningitis is - i.e. the fetus is dead, but without malicious intent by anyone involved.

There are MUCH better arguments in favor of abortion... this one is kind of silly.

As for the religious arguments, there's a reason I think that, if the Christian point of view is valid, there absolutely has to be something like Purgatory - most souls are neither pure and follow all the rules right, nor hopelessly evil. A just God would give both punishment for wrongs and means for eventual salvation.

This is doubly true for good people who hold a different or no faith, but live good lives otherwise. Indeed, so help me, if someone I truly cared for were eternally damned for such a reason, I couldn't deal with the "just" God who did so (I have very strict views on some areas of morality, ones that must apply to God as well as to any sentient mortal or non-divine immortal - although I sincerely hope God is  as all-moral as S/He is all-powerful and all-knowing!). A sort of school/prison for souls to learn the "true path" before ascending to paradise seems far more reasonable, at least in the opinion of this mere mortal. (One problem I have with many religions - I find it a little hard to just accept what the Bible or Qu'ran or Principia Discordia says, or what someone else says it says, as Universal Truth, and would rather see it with my own eyes, or at least think it through a little).

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

This silly argument is no more silly than what pro-lifers come up with.

[Friz]

What if Mary aborted Jesus? Think about that.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

What if Mary aborted Jesus? Think about that.

World history from then on doesn't resemble ours at all. For one, Rome probably endures like China.

[KEmperor]

What if Mary aborted Jesus? Think about that.

World history from then on doesn't resemble ours at all. For one, Rome probably endures like China.

While I despise religion, it was not the main reason for the fall of the western empire.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

What if Mary aborted Jesus? Think about that.

World history from then on doesn't resemble ours at all. For one, Rome probably endures like China.

While I despise religion, it was not the main reason for the fall of the western empire.

It wasn't the main reason but it helped.

[Wakie]

The morning after pill, if it terminates a fetus is murder

That's scientifically impossible.

Emergency contraception can prevent the implantation of a zygote into the uterus, but it cannot affect an embryo or fetus.  Pregnancy begins at implantation anyway, not conception.

Now now ... don't complicate things for the fundies with facts.  It makes it too hard for them blindly follow.

[bullmoose88]

Now I know that most pro-life people are like "life starts at conception". So what happens in the event of a miscarriage? so does the woman go to hell for "murdering her baby"? After all if life begins at conception a miscarried fetus DOEs have a soul...

Uhh...murder implies an intentional mental state, in most circumstances, you have to intend to kill to commit murder (of course, some forms of extreme recklessness could also fall into the murder category).

All other issues of this debate aside (ie is a miscarriage a crime, of any sort, for pro-lifers), your premise, on its face is flawed.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

Now I know that most pro-life people are like "life starts at conception". So what happens in the event of a miscarriage? so does the woman go to hell for "murdering her baby"? After all if life begins at conception a miscarried fetus DOEs have a soul...

Uhh...murder implies an intentional mental state, in most circumstances, you have to intend to kill to commit murder (of course, some forms of extreme recklessness could also fall into the murder category).

All other issues of this debate aside (ie is a miscarriage a crime, of any sort, for pro-lifers), your premise, on its face is flawed.

My premise is no less flawed than the "arguments" pro-lifers use to advocate their hatred of women.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

The morning after pill, if it terminates a fetus is murder

That's scientifically impossible.

Emergency contraception can prevent the implantation of a zygote into the uterus, but it cannot affect an embryo or fetus.  Pregnancy begins at implantation anyway, not conception.

I don't CARE when pregnancy begins - I care when LIFE begins (specifically viable life - which is different than a tubular pregnancy - which is a non-viable life).

What if Mary aborted Jesus? Think about that.

Mary couldn't have - b/c that's not God destined her to do - not to mention that she wouldn't have because she was a servant who wanted to serve God.

The morning after pill, if it terminates a fetus is murder

That's scientifically impossible.

Emergency contraception can prevent the implantation of a zygote into the uterus, but it cannot affect an embryo or fetus.  Pregnancy begins at implantation anyway, not conception.

Now now ... don't complicate things for the fundies with facts.  It makes it too hard for them blindly follow.

What facts does he give here that I haven't already argued against the validity of?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Now I know that most pro-life people are like "life starts at conception". So what happens in the event of a miscarriage? so does the woman go to hell for "murdering her baby"? After all if life begins at conception a miscarried fetus DOEs have a soul...

Uhh...murder implies an intentional mental state, in most circumstances, you have to intend to kill to commit murder (of course, some forms of extreme recklessness could also fall into the murder category).

All other issues of this debate aside (ie is a miscarriage a crime, of any sort, for pro-lifers), your premise, on its face is flawed.

My premise is no less flawed than the "arguments" pro-lifers use to advocate their hatred of women.

It's not hatred of women - it's love of a child!

And you're argument would be like charging a mother with murder because her child died in a housefire caused by lightning.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

Inks, the fetus isn't viable until its born so I presume that means you're pro-choice now? You're all about "protecting viable lives" so..

[Ebowed]

So you're saying that God predestines certain women to have an abortion?  Why do you whine so much about it then?  It's part of God's plan.

Saying that life begins before pregnancy is just silly, Inks.  You should care when pregnancy begins, because banning anything that kills a zygote means banning certain types of birth control.  Birth control which reduces the number of abortions.

If your main focus is on viable life, why do you have any interest in abortions performed in the first and most of the second trimester?