I have a question for Atlas's pro-lifers..
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  I have a question for Atlas's pro-lifers..
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Author Topic: I have a question for Atlas's pro-lifers..  (Read 8770 times)
KEmperor
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« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2007, 02:17:11 PM »

purgatory is not limbo.  Souls in purgatory are cleansed and then go to Heaven.

Limbo was in effect during the Old Testament when the gates of Heaven were closed to humans, between original sin and the death of Christ.  Moses, etc., went to Limbo until Jesus's death, and then went to Heaven.  Souls don't go to Limbo anymore.

Retcons are fun, aren't they?
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Harry
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« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2007, 02:23:19 PM »

purgatory is not limbo.  Souls in purgatory are cleansed and then go to Heaven.

Limbo was in effect during the Old Testament when the gates of Heaven were closed to humans, between original sin and the death of Christ.  Moses, etc., went to Limbo until Jesus's death, and then went to Heaven.  Souls don't go to Limbo anymore.

Retcons are fun, aren't they?
AFAIK this has been the church's belief for well over 1000 years
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Friz
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« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2007, 11:48:59 PM »

The Catholic belief is that non-baptised children go to purgatory, that would include miscarriages.

I'm likely to be mistaken, but didn't the Vatican recently (perhaps a year or so ago) announce that this belief was no longer valid?

You're probably correct. I stopped paying attention when I stopped attending mass.

"Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you." - God
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2007, 12:02:26 AM »

The Catholic belief is that non-baptised children go to purgatory, that would include miscarriages.

I'm likely to be mistaken, but didn't the Vatican recently (perhaps a year or so ago) announce that this belief was no longer valid?

You're probably correct. I stopped paying attention when I stopped attending mass.

"Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you." - God

That's Old Testament - New Testament Christians worship on Sunday, which isn't the Sabbath - but Christ's command to have fellowship with believers (mostly given through Paul - the command, not the fellowship) applies to Sunday.
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Friz
thad_l
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« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2007, 12:04:42 AM »

Buh-buh-but, this is supposed to be the infallible word of God!!! How can mere mortals pick and choose what to believe?!
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2007, 02:17:40 AM »

Buh-buh-but, this is supposed to be the infallible word of God!!! How can mere mortals pick and choose what to believe?!

It's not picking and choosing.  It's a transcending of a command to a principle - clearly Jesus told us that not every OT commandment applied (eye for eye, tooth for tooth --> turn the other cheek), and some commandments were upgraded (committing adultery --> even thinking about a woman in an adulterous manner)
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KEmperor
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« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2007, 03:16:13 AM »

Buh-buh-but, this is supposed to be the infallible word of God!!! How can mere mortals pick and choose what to believe?!

It's not picking and choosing.  It's a transcending of a command to a principle - clearly Jesus told us that not every OT commandment applied (eye for eye, tooth for tooth --> turn the other cheek), and some commandments were upgraded (committing adultery --> even thinking about a woman in an adulterous manner)

Sounds like you need to run a virus scan too.
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Friz
thad_l
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« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2007, 10:43:14 AM »

Buh-buh-but, this is supposed to be the infallible word of God!!! How can mere mortals pick and choose what to believe?!

It's not picking and choosing.  It's a transcending of a command to a principle - clearly Jesus told us that not every OT commandment applied (eye for eye, tooth for tooth --> turn the other cheek), and some commandments were upgraded (committing adultery --> even thinking about a woman in an adulterous manner)

Jesus isn't real.  He is a beloved children's character in the spirit of Mickey Mouse and Snoopy.
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Flying Dog
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« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2007, 02:50:02 PM »

Buh-buh-but, this is supposed to be the infallible word of God!!! How can mere mortals pick and choose what to believe?!

It's not picking and choosing.  It's a transcending of a command to a principle - clearly Jesus told us that not every OT commandment applied (eye for eye, tooth for tooth --> turn the other cheek), and some commandments were upgraded (committing adultery --> even thinking about a woman in an adulterous manner)

Jesus isn't real.  He is a beloved children's character in the spirit of Mickey Mouse and Snoopy.

O.K. that is complete nonsense. Even mainstream atheists say that Jesus was a real person. There is plenty of evidence supporting this. But Im not going to explain them to you because you believe what you want to be true probably. And you, a person of science, im sure cannot refute this because your almighty scientists and historians and theologions say its true.l
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Friz
thad_l
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« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2007, 04:59:01 PM »

Buh-buh-but, this is supposed to be the infallible word of God!!! How can mere mortals pick and choose what to believe?!

It's not picking and choosing.  It's a transcending of a command to a principle - clearly Jesus told us that not every OT commandment applied (eye for eye, tooth for tooth --> turn the other cheek), and some commandments were upgraded (committing adultery --> even thinking about a woman in an adulterous manner)

Jesus isn't real.  He is a beloved children's character in the spirit of Mickey Mouse and Snoopy.

O.K. that is complete nonsense. Even mainstream atheists say that Jesus was a real person. There is plenty of evidence supporting this. But Im not going to explain them to you because you believe what you want to be true probably. And you, a person of science, im sure cannot refute this because your almighty scientists and historians and theologions say its true.l

I meant the Jesus Catholics believe in.  Of course he lived, but he really was about as important as anyone's great grandfather's third cousin's prostitute.
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Ebowed
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« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2007, 07:14:59 PM »


Viability is a medical determination, not a philosophical or religious one.  It varies from pregnancy to pregnancy, I should point out as well.  But there is no such thing as a viable zygote.
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bullmoose88
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« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2007, 07:20:30 PM »


Viability is a medical determination, not a philosophical or religious one.  It varies from pregnancy to pregnancy, I should point out as well.  But there is no such thing as a viable zygote.

This is true, though it would be amusing for someone to argue otherwise.
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Undisguised Sockpuppet
Straha
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« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2007, 07:26:08 PM »


Viability is a medical determination, not a philosophical or religious one.  It varies from pregnancy to pregnancy, I should point out as well.  But there is no such thing as a viable zygote.

This is true, though it would be amusing for someone to argue otherwise.
Indeed.
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Person Man
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« Reply #63 on: September 14, 2007, 12:20:47 AM »
« Edited: September 14, 2007, 12:30:55 AM by Begaj'ho Bag'dasarian »

Complete BS. I meant viable as in can live without medical support. Try again.

I don't care what YOU mean by "viable" - I care what God thinks - because he's the one we have to worry about, not me, and not you.

And "viable" starts at conception.


Now this position is almost impossible to defend from the first amendment, if it became law.

Now, how did this abortion debate become a theological discussion with no mutually contended facts?

Believing in secular government isn't hard to understand. Religion is the relationship between one person and their God, not elected or ordained officials and God. Just because secular government was based on Christian principles doesn't make secular government not secular or that secular government is at odds with people of faith.

It is a problem if your faith is a means unto itself. You simply believe in it, not because you believe it is the way or is right, but just because you want to believe in it. When I had that mindset as a teenager, I was barreling down the path of pentecostal or SBC fundamentalism (I got scared by the bizarre nature of the pentecostal church, but really like the SBC one)  because I saw my God and Country as mere ends to themselves, which would have left me to "abandon my first love", like what happened to the Christians of Ephesus.

I just don't see any government interest in "life" beyond basic security because I feel that God has been realized when a woman chooses to have a baby than when a government forces her at rifle point.
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #64 on: September 14, 2007, 12:25:24 AM »

Complete BS. I meant viable as in can live without medical support. Try again.

I don't care what YOU mean by "viable" - I care what God thinks - because he's the one we have to worry about, not me, and not you.

And "viable" starts at conception.


Now this position is almost impossible to defend from the first amendment, if it became law.

Or you can just define "life" not based on religion - it doesn't matter why you define it to me, just as long as it's defined correctly.
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Person Man
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« Reply #65 on: September 14, 2007, 12:31:45 AM »

Yes, but you are basing your interest in it on theological principle, not the public good.
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #66 on: September 15, 2007, 02:18:21 AM »

Yes, but you are basing your interest in it on theological principle, not the public good.

Define public - are the unborn "public?"
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snowguy716
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« Reply #67 on: September 15, 2007, 07:33:06 AM »

Yes, but you are basing your interest in it on theological principle, not the public good.

Define public - are the unborn "public?"

If viable life begins at conception, then there's no reason why a woman should have to carry this "life" in her uterus for 9 months.  If the woman so chooses, this viable "life" should be removed from her uterus and expected to sustain itself with care at an adoption center, or maybe your church. 

Somehow, I don't see this happening at conception.

Abortion of viable life is wrong, in my opinion.  Viable life would be a fetus that could survive, even with considerable medical intervention, once born.  There comes a point, however, where even the most advanced technology of today's world cannot save a fetus.  This point needs to be better defined and it needs to be the limit of abortion.

If a woman thinks she may be pregnant and does not wish to have a child, she should first consider adoption and other alternatives, but if she decides to have an abortion (no strings attached in the first trimester, iffy in the 2nd, no in the 3rd), that is her choice.   Not your choice or God's choice or the fetus' choice.  Her choice.
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Undisguised Sockpuppet
Straha
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« Reply #68 on: September 15, 2007, 09:02:17 AM »

Yes, but you are basing your interest in it on theological principle, not the public good.

Define public - are the unborn "public?"
The unborn are parasites until they're born.
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #69 on: September 15, 2007, 01:15:24 PM »

Yes, but you are basing your interest in it on theological principle, not the public good.

Define public - are the unborn "public?"

If viable life begins at conception, then there's no reason why a woman should have to carry this "life" in her uterus for 9 months.  If the woman so chooses, this viable "life" should be removed from her uterus and expected to sustain itself with care at an adoption center, or maybe your church. 

Somehow, I don't see this happening at conception.

Abortion of viable life is wrong, in my opinion.  Viable life would be a fetus that could survive, even with considerable medical intervention, once born.  There comes a point, however, where even the most advanced technology of today's world cannot save a fetus.  This point needs to be better defined and it needs to be the limit of abortion.

If a woman thinks she may be pregnant and does not wish to have a child, she should first consider adoption and other alternatives, but if she decides to have an abortion (no strings attached in the first trimester, iffy in the 2nd, no in the 3rd), that is her choice.   Not your choice or God's choice or the fetus' choice.  Her choice.

If a woman doesn't want to have a baby - then don't have sex, or use a condom

"What about rape?" - It's not the child's fault - dont' punish the innocent 3rd party.  My mother who counsels these people says that most raped women who get abortions get even more emotionally unstable.
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Ebowed
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« Reply #70 on: September 15, 2007, 10:09:32 PM »

"What about rape?" - It's not the child's fault - dont' punish the innocent 3rd party.  My mother who counsels these people says that most raped women who get abortions get even more emotionally unstable.

Uh... wow.  That's because they were impregnated by a rapist...
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Undisguised Sockpuppet
Straha
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« Reply #71 on: September 15, 2007, 11:30:55 PM »

"What about rape?" - It's not the child's fault - dont' punish the innocent 3rd party.  My mother who counsels these people says that most raped women who get abortions get even more emotionally unstable.

Uh... wow.  That's because they were impregnated by a rapist...
Inks cares more about the fetus than he does women. Disgusting.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2007, 11:33:41 PM »

Now I know that most pro-life people are like "life starts at conception". So what happens in the event of a miscarriage? so does the woman go to hell for "murdering her baby"? After all if life begins at conception a miscarried fetus DOEs have a soul...

Well, this post is assinine for several reasons, the first of which being that a miscarriage is, by its nature, an accidental event.  If it wasn't, then it is, by definition, an abortion.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2007, 11:36:40 PM »

So you're saying that if a murderer repents 5 minutes before they go to the chair they go to heaven?

If it's a TRUE repentence, then absolutely.
Then what's the point of eternal punishment for murder? I remember the 10 commandments saying "thou shalt not kill" as one...

Because if people don't repent of any of the commandments in the bible (not just the 10), they go to Hell for eternity - but if somebody repents, God promises to forgive them.
So basically mass murderers and dictators get a free pass for being Christian? So basically Hitler is in heaven but billions of decent people are burning in hell according to the Christian worldview? That's a pretty screwed up and offensive worldview then.

*Yawn*

Hitler wasn't a Christian at all.  He was an occultist and that's a historical fact.  Number two, though I don't agree with the idea that one must be a professed Christian, one must acctually be sorry for their offenses.  I highly doubt murderous dictators are truely sorry for what they have done.  If they were, then they would have stopped it long before it got out of control.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2007, 11:40:20 PM »

If there was a god she wouldn't care about something minor like one world out of many with life. She'd have bigger things to care about.

"If there were a God" that God would be ominipotent, and thus capable of seeing and caring about all things.  What is important is what said God would be willing to forgive.
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