I have a question for Atlas's pro-lifers..

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Now I know that most pro-life people are like "life starts at conception". So what happens in the event of a miscarriage? so does the woman go to hell for "murdering her baby"? After all if life begins at conception a miscarried fetus DOEs have a soul...

The woman didn't murder her baby.  If a baby dies of birth complications slightly after birth, it's not murder.  The morning after pill, if it terminates a fetus is murder, but not all murderers go to hell.

It depends if they are a Christian - and believe that God will save them.

And most people have already sinned by age 5, so a murder at age 18 would be sin # 10billion something.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

So you're saying that if a murderer repents 5 minutes before they go to the chair they go to heaven?

If it's a TRUE repentence, then absolutely.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

So you're saying that if a murderer repents 5 minutes before they go to the chair they go to heaven?

If it's a TRUE repentence, then absolutely.

Then what's the point of eternal punishment for murder? I remember the 10 commandments saying "thou shalt not kill" as one...

Because if people don't repent of any of the commandments in the bible (not just the 10), they go to Hell for eternity - but if somebody repents, God promises to forgive them.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

So you're saying that if a murderer repents 5 minutes before they go to the chair they go to heaven?

If it's a TRUE repentence, then absolutely.

Then what's the point of eternal punishment for murder? I remember the 10 commandments saying "thou shalt not kill" as one...

Because if people don't repent of any of the commandments in the bible (not just the 10), they go to Hell for eternity - but if somebody repents, God promises to forgive them.

So basically mass murderers and dictators get a free pass for being Christian? So basically Hitler is in heaven but billions of decent people are burning in hell according to the Christian worldview? That's a pretty screwed up and offensive worldview then.

I doubt Hitler asked for forgiveness - because if he was truly sincere, he wouldn't have committed suicide - he'd have faced up to it.

And why did you start a thread if you asked it in another - there's 3 abortion threads - don't start trolling.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

The morning after pill, if it terminates a fetus is murder

That's scientifically impossible.

Emergency contraception can prevent the implantation of a zygote into the uterus, but it cannot affect an embryo or fetus.  Pregnancy begins at implantation anyway, not conception.

I don't CARE when pregnancy begins - I care when LIFE begins (specifically viable life - which is different than a tubular pregnancy - which is a non-viable life).

What if Mary aborted Jesus? Think about that.

Mary couldn't have - b/c that's not God destined her to do - not to mention that she wouldn't have because she was a servant who wanted to serve God.

The morning after pill, if it terminates a fetus is murder

That's scientifically impossible.

Emergency contraception can prevent the implantation of a zygote into the uterus, but it cannot affect an embryo or fetus.  Pregnancy begins at implantation anyway, not conception.

Now now ... don't complicate things for the fundies with facts.  It makes it too hard for them blindly follow.

What facts does he give here that I haven't already argued against the validity of?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Now I know that most pro-life people are like "life starts at conception". So what happens in the event of a miscarriage? so does the woman go to hell for "murdering her baby"? After all if life begins at conception a miscarried fetus DOEs have a soul...

Uhh...murder implies an intentional mental state, in most circumstances, you have to intend to kill to commit murder (of course, some forms of extreme recklessness could also fall into the murder category).

All other issues of this debate aside (ie is a miscarriage a crime, of any sort, for pro-lifers), your premise, on its face is flawed.

My premise is no less flawed than the "arguments" pro-lifers use to advocate their hatred of women.

It's not hatred of women - it's love of a child!

And you're argument would be like charging a mother with murder because her child died in a housefire caused by lightning.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Inks, the fetus isn't viable until its born so I presume that means you're pro-choice now? You're all about "protecting viable lives" so..

Viable as in - it could live.  Tubal babies can NEVER live - it is PURELY impossible.

So you're saying that God predestines certain women to have an abortion?  Why do you whine so much about it then?  It's part of God's plan.

Saying that life begins before pregnancy is just silly, Inks.  You should care when pregnancy begins, because banning anything that kills a zygote means banning certain types of birth control.  Birth control which reduces the number of abortions.

If your main focus is on viable life, why do you have any interest in abortions performed in the first and most of the second trimester?

No - they choose to - but it's still in God's plan - he COULD stop it if he wanted, he just decided to give us free chioce.

And as I've stated - some birth control mehtods shoudl be banned.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Complete BS. I meant viable as in can live without medical support. Try again.

I don't care what YOU mean by "viable" - I care what God thinks - because he's the one we have to worry about, not me, and not you.

And "viable" starts at conception.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Now I know that most pro-life people are like "life starts at conception". So what happens in the event of a miscarriage? so does the woman go to hell for "murdering her baby"? After all if life begins at conception a miscarried fetus DOEs have a soul...

The Catholic belief is that non-baptised children go to purgatory, that would include miscarriages. The woman certainly wouldn't be held responsible for the death.

Wow what an awesome God!  The innocent spend eternity in limbo!

Well, I don't believe in purgatory, so no - they go straight to heaven.

The Catholic belief is that non-baptised children go to purgatory, that would include miscarriages.

I'm likely to be mistaken, but didn't the Vatican recently (perhaps a year or so ago) announce that this belief was no longer valid?

Buh-buh-but, this is supposed to be the infallible word of God!!! How can mere mortals pick and choose what to believe?!

Statements from the Vatican and the word of God are 2 different things.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

The Catholic belief is that non-baptised children go to purgatory, that would include miscarriages.

I'm likely to be mistaken, but didn't the Vatican recently (perhaps a year or so ago) announce that this belief was no longer valid?

You're probably correct. I stopped paying attention when I stopped attending mass.

"Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you." - God

That's Old Testament - New Testament Christians worship on Sunday, which isn't the Sabbath - but Christ's command to have fellowship with believers (mostly given through Paul - the command, not the fellowship) applies to Sunday.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Buh-buh-but, this is supposed to be the infallible word of God!!! How can mere mortals pick and choose what to believe?!

It's not picking and choosing.  It's a transcending of a command to a principle - clearly Jesus told us that not every OT commandment applied (eye for eye, tooth for tooth --> turn the other cheek), and some commandments were upgraded (committing adultery --> even thinking about a woman in an adulterous manner)

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Complete BS. I meant viable as in can live without medical support. Try again.

I don't care what YOU mean by "viable" - I care what God thinks - because he's the one we have to worry about, not me, and not you.

And "viable" starts at conception.

Now this position is almost impossible to defend from the first amendment, if it became law.

Or you can just define "life" not based on religion - it doesn't matter why you define it to me, just as long as it's defined correctly.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Yes, but you are basing your interest in it on theological principle, not the public good.

Define public - are the unborn "public?"

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Yes, but you are basing your interest in it on theological principle, not the public good.

Define public - are the unborn "public?"

If viable life begins at conception, then there's no reason why a woman should have to carry this "life" in her uterus for 9 months.  If the woman so chooses, this viable "life" should be removed from her uterus and expected to sustain itself with care at an adoption center, or maybe your church. 

Somehow, I don't see this happening at conception.

Abortion of viable life is wrong, in my opinion.  Viable life would be a fetus that could survive, even with considerable medical intervention, once born.  There comes a point, however, where even the most advanced technology of today's world cannot save a fetus.  This point needs to be better defined and it needs to be the limit of abortion.

If a woman thinks she may be pregnant and does not wish to have a child, she should first consider adoption and other alternatives, but if she decides to have an abortion (no strings attached in the first trimester, iffy in the 2nd, no in the 3rd), that is her choice.   Not your choice or God's choice or the fetus' choice.  Her choice.

If a woman doesn't want to have a baby - then don't have sex, or use a condom

"What about rape?" - It's not the child's fault - dont' punish the innocent 3rd party.  My mother who counsels these people says that most raped women who get abortions get even more emotionally unstable.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

"What about rape?" - It's not the child's fault - dont' punish the innocent 3rd party.  My mother who counsels these people says that most raped women who get abortions get even more emotionally unstable.

Uh... wow.  That's because they were impregnated by a rapist...

Inks cares more about the fetus than he does women. Disgusting.

No - I care for both - but I'm going to defend the one who can't defend him/herself.

And they're aren't more unstable b/c they were impregnated - you missed my point.

Women who get abortions after being raped are normally more unstable than those who have the baby.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

"What about rape?" - It's not the child's fault - dont' punish the innocent 3rd party.  My mother who counsels these people says that most raped women who get abortions get even more emotionally unstable.

Uh... wow.  That's because they were impregnated by a rapist...

Inks cares more about the fetus than he does women. Disgusting.

No - I care for both - but I'm going to defend the one who can't defend him/herself.

And they're aren't more unstable b/c they were impregnated - you missed my point.

Women who get abortions after being raped are normally more unstable than those who have the baby.

Why does stability have any relevance?

Because you guys have "the best interest of the woman" in mind.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

"What about rape?" - It's not the child's fault - dont' punish the innocent 3rd party.  My mother who counsels these people says that most raped women who get abortions get even more emotionally unstable.

Uh... wow.  That's because they were impregnated by a rapist...

Inks cares more about the fetus than he does women. Disgusting.

No - I care for both - but I'm going to defend the one who can't defend him/herself.

EVEN IF the fetus has rights, the woman did not choose for the fetus to enter her body, so EVEN IF she didn't have the right to abort otherwise, in this case it would be self-defense.

Self Defense!  Come on - against a baby!  The baby can't help it.  That's like you saying that a bully pushes a kid onto another kid, and the kid who got fallen onto punches the kid who was bullied in "self defense" - it's not the kid's fault he fell, it's the bully's.