End of the Budget Amendment [Tabled]

[Peter]

I would speak in favour of this amendment - when was the last time the Senate actually passed a budget - I believe it may have been around Easter 2005, over 2 years ago (though one may have slipped through since then). Whenever the Senate had to consider a budget, very few Senators took part because they saw the vast numbers as daunting and time-consuming (totally understandable).

One of the reasons why the budget might have worked at the beginning was that there were a number of workhorses around Atlasia generally - Sam as GM, Emsworth as VP, etc. who were willing to put in hours to prepare a budget that was then given little more than a second glance by Senators (myself included). This lack of gratitude ultimately means that nobody would be willing to compile such data again (realistically our figures were quite basic compared to reality, and it could not easily be made much more simple in my view)

One of the reasons I was also attracted by a budgetary process was the possibility of a government shutdown if there was a standoff without funding - theoretically we haven't passed a budget in so long, the government probably has run out of money. Without the actual reality of a shutdown, the impetus to pass a budget is removed.

[Sam Spade]

I will work on an amendment tonight and should have it done by tomorrow.

[Sam Spade]

Yes, I know I said I would get to this today.  Didn't happen.    But considering this might not pass without a good solution, I think it's important to try.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

Yes, I know I said I would get to this today.  Didn't happen.    But considering this might not pass without a good solution, I think it's important to try.

This one, more than a number of other bills, has some pretty important implications, so I don't mind if it isn't rushed.

After all, my "this afternoon" turned into somewhere approaching 48 hours.

[Sam Spade]

I motion for an amendment to replace the text of this legislation with the following language:

End of the Budget Amendment

1. Article I, Section 3, Clause 5 is added to the Constitution, with the following language:

The Senate, in conjunction with the President of Atlasia and his Executive Offices, shall provide a detailed accounting of federal expenditures and revenues for the benefit of the Atlasian citizenry at least once every calendar year.  The Senate shall have the power to define the detail of this accounting by appropriate legislation.

2. Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution is repealed.


Thoughts?

[Verily]

I'm okay with it.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

Same here.

[Ebowed]

And when that doesn't work out in one or two years, we'll be debating whether or not to abolish the budget completely--again.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

And when that doesn't work out in one or two years, we'll be debating whether or not to abolish the budget completely--again.

Better in incremental steps, then.

[Sam Spade]

And when that doesn't work out in one or two years, we'll be debating whether or not to abolish the budget completely--again.

Well, the whole point is as follows:  In contrast with the specific commands of Article I, Section 8, this Amendment allows the Senate to define exactly how specific the "accounting" or Budget should be and how complicated the Budget should be.  The Senate can, thus, pass legislation that specifies and "functionally" allots the amount of time and detail it wishes to place in the budgetary process.  And if that process proves to be too time-consuming, the Senate can always pass more legislation to simplify the process.

Without a budget, what's the point to being here, except to argue with each other.  There has to be some realism.

[minionofmidas]

Strike "detailed" from your draft, Sam, and it's worth debating.

There has to be a bit of realism - and realism involves, here, admitting that we aren't capable of doing an actual budget unless we play this game full time. Just as it involves admitting we aren't capable of simulating running the US of A on current levels of commitment.

[Peter]

Its another empty Constitutional provision - there is absolutely no impetus for the Senate, or the executive, to produce a set of accounts (however detailed they need to be), and undoubtedly, if produced, they will turn out to be the work of one or two members, and will then be passed very quickly by the Senate because nobody cares (either in the Senate or in the populace).

Ultimately, the one great thing about the original budget provisions was that it forced the Senate to consider them and would not allow the Senate to move on to other business until it had passed something (though again, it generally turned out being the work of the GM). What then happened was that the Senate got pissed about the fact that it kept getting delayed by this inconvenient requirement, and instead voted that the budget requirement could be waived by a 2/3d vote. Initially this provision was brought in to allow the Senate to move on when the GM had not produced data, and for a while a few of us kept the Senate honest. Eventually, however, the Senate took it upon itself that it could simply waive the requirement even when data had been produced, and now the Senate doesn't even bother waiving the requirement - it just gets on with other business.

To pretend that any sort of incremental reform will work is what Einstein told us is INSANITY - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Much like Ebowed, I can almost guarantee this will never produce a set of accounts, and whats more, we'll have the same characters who support this, and then do nothing when the time is due, who will then come back next year and express support for yet another stage of "incremental reform".

Consign this to the dustbin of history. For all our sakes.

[minionofmidas]

Very well said, Pete. Thank you.

[afleitch]

Consign this to the dustbin of history. For all our sakes.

Hear, hear!

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

If people really find my suggestion as to how to proceed with respect to the budget too time consuming, unwieldly, and inconvienient...that's just sad.  I've reworked the process such that it is a simple matter of ideological debate rather than a specific battle over numbers where, if the Senate is genuinely apathetic to the whole process, it can simply pass a bill authorizing continued debt spending.

I understand that we're not here doing this "full time," but let's at least put a minimum of effort into this thing, no?  Can we at least pretend there are consequences to passing spending bills?

[Colin]

Thank you Peter for giving the best reasoning for doing away with the budget. I really can't elaborate on the administration's position in a more eloquent and straight forward way as Peter just did.

[Јas]

Eventually, however, the Senate took it upon itself that it could simply waive the requirement even when data had been produced, and now the Senate doesn't even bother waiving the requirement - it just gets on with other business.

Just, FTR, I opened the budget thread at the start of the 20th session here and that thread remains technically open for discussions and considerations following the unanimous passing of the waiver vote. No comments have been posted there since then.

I was actually a little unsure as to whether a new waiver vote was needed for this session, on a reading of the particular constitutional argument, I tended to the view that it wasn't necessary - but I'm open to correction on this point.

[Sam Spade]

We are now voting on the following amendment:

End of the Budget Amendment

1. Article I, Section 3, Clause 5 is added to the Constitution, with the following language:

The Senate, in conjunction with the President of Atlasia and his Executive Officers, shall provide a detailed accounting of federal expenditures and revenues for the benefit of the Atlasian citizenry at least once every calendar year.  The Senate shall have the power to define the detail and scope of this accounting by appropriate legislation.

2. Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution is repealed.

Please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.


Aye.

[Verily]

Aye

[Ebowed]

Nay.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

Aye.

[Hatman 🍁]

nay

[minionofmidas]

Nay

[Brandon H]

Aye

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Nay