What should be taught in Schools?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Whenever the issue of education is brought up on this forum it's nearly put forward as an arguement simply between Public (or state run) Schooling versus Private (Really Semi-Private) Schooling; the arguements mainly being confined to whether the Private sector should be allowed to expand in order to boost failing public schools or whether the state should intervene to financially support the public school system. What is never discussed is in the thread title (except perhaps funnily enough, if it involves Sex Education) or what exactly is the defintion of Education, or why do some kids fail and other succeed at school; Is it solely because of the personality and lack of effort of the individuals involved or has to do with something fundamentally wrong in the system of Education. This is my position.

This is an arguement Jas and Me have been having over two threads which mainly refers to the Irish system with all it's quirks; but as the system of education is so similiar across the western world I can't imagine too much will be lost in translation. It's a pity due to space I can't post all I have written so far so I will just quote this bit below and link to my other posts (which should be read to be get a better picture of my position):

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From Here: https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=61532.0 and there is also a bit here (which started the discussion): https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=63950.msg1320166#new

Discuss.

[Citizen James]

So, what you're saying is that Ireland (or at least your part of it) is stuck in the old "factory" model of schooling.  Students are assumed to be Tabla Rasa and passively absorb knowledge.

Not that that isn't all that uncommon in the states either, but some know better.  current educational theory involves encouraging student to make connections between prior knowledge and new knowledge.

In my own field of math there is a very lively debate going on as to whether there should be real world examples and a connection between an intuitive understanding of concepts; or whether the old fashioned way of drill and kill is more useful and less frivolous.   A subset of that is the usage of calculators and whether they are a tool for which students (which have already passed basic math) can bypass strenuous number crunching in favor of higher concepts.  (for example, in the graphing of quadratic functions).

I am also very much a fan of a (revised) Socratic method.  There are still key concepts that need to be covered, but real learning is an active process - students need to figure stuff out for themselves, with teachers as guides to help them along and give them a hand rather than shovel information as though students were an empty glass to be filled.

I hated history until college, where it was finally presented as a flow - a give and take of various socio political forces, rather than just a bunch of random dates and events.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

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Essentially. Certain changes have been made but those are rather superficial.

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But how widespread should those ideas be should they taken into the school system? And which schools are more likely to adopt them?

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Agree. (Except the hating history part o\c)

[opebo]

Ideally each child would have a governess in its younger years, and a gentleman tutor by the age of 9 or so.  It could then be sent to boarding school in time for puberty.  As for what to 'teach':  Latin, Greek, cricket-playing, Rhetoric, and French.

Extracurricular activities:  buggery and/or horse-riding

[jokerman]

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Essentially. Certain changes have been made but those are rather superficial.

It's a better situation than in the U.S., in my opinion, where we've cut out the meat of our education.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

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Essentially. Certain changes have been made but those are rather superficial.

It's a better situation than in the U.S., in my opinion, where we've cut out the meat of our education.

What meat would that be? What do you think Students should learn?

[jokerman]

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Essentially. Certain changes have been made but those are rather superficial.

It's a better situation than in the U.S., in my opinion, where we've cut out the meat of our education.

What meat would that be? What do you think Students should learn?

Basic literacy and arithmetic.  Teaching the fundamentals is eschewed in the majority of American schools, replaced with the teaching of "higher order" values.  Yet when it comes to understanding concepts of math, penetrating into the meaning behind works of writing, and even thinking outside the box on both of these matters (an ability claimed by some of our modern education experts to be stiffled by traditional learning techniques) I exceed the abilities of the vast majority of my fellow students.  I gained these abilities because in my early years my father frequently drilled me in reading through phonics and problems of addition, subraction, multiplication, and division without the use of a calculator (or use of pencil and paper, whenever possible). 

[Ban my account ffs!]

I posted a pretty long and detailed post here and it seems to have disappeared.

[Gustaf]

While I haven't followed your debate it seems to me that your argument seems to be that schools should explain the point of learning something before trying to teach it? While I agree with that I would say that a fundamental problem here is that people have opposing views on this. Most people, I believe, want to see what kind of bearing a certain piece of knowledge has on their own lives, especially present, before they're willing to learn it. I, on the other hand, want to see what kind of point in a more intellectual sense there is to a piece of knowledge. The problem lies largely in the fact that the lives of most teenagers require little to no knowledge on anything an most are too dumb and/or short-sighted to care abuot the distant future, and hence uninterested in learning things. That is why drills and grades are needed to make kids emerge from their teens with at least some shreds of knowledge.

[Storebought]

It is difficult to even hold a discussion on this topic on this forum because most of us are naturally inquisitive, which means we hold value in the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake and derive some sort of pleasure in obtaining it. Just think about it: This site was constructed to satisfy the curiosity of those who must know Jimmy Carter's New York state vote margin in 1976.

Not that my opinion matters, but I will say that the best way for young men to learn in a structured environment is either though open argument and disputation, or learning-by-doing. What that subject happens to be is of no real consequence, since the real skill lies in the arguing or the doing.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

It is difficult to even hold a discussion on this topic on this forum because most of us are naturally inquisitive, which means we hold value in the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake and derive some sort of pleasure in obtaining it. Just think about it: This site was constructed to satisfy the curiosity of those who must know Jimmy Carter's New York state vote margin in 1976.

Not that my opinion matters, but I will say that the best way for young men to learn in a structured environment is either though open argument and disputation, or learning-by-doing. What that subject happens to be is of no real consequence, since the real skill lies in the arguing or the doing.

I would agree with this, but not with Gustaf - especially this bit:

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Now perhaps you're experience is different from mine but generally I find this not to be case, that most teenagers and young people are intellectually curious to a degree though that is mostly sucked out of kids during their early schooling for various reasons. Of course a commodity based culture which isn't based around the idea of knowledge hardly helps.

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Precisely. My criticism is that alot of what is taught in schools is essentially trivial and worthless with no impact on the lives of children; this is especially true for History and what could be important than History in understanding the world Humans' created? For the record I support student centred learning anyway as I find after the age of 12 general curriculum become somewhat irrelevant. (ie. Students choose what they themselves wish to know, Teachers act more along the lines of Tutors, etc.)

[jokerman]

The problem lies largely in the fact that the lives of most teenagers require little to no knowledge on anything an most are too dumb and/or short-sighted to care abuot the distant future, and hence uninterested in learning things. That is why drills and grades are needed to make kids emerge from their teens with at least some shreds of knowledge.

Now perhaps you're experience is different from mine but generally I find this not to be case, that most teenagers and young people are intellectually curious to a degree though that is mostly sucked out of kids during their early schooling for various reasons. Of course a commodity based culture which isn't based around the idea of knowledge hardly helps.

You're right that intellectual curiosity is present in all young people, however it's not the schools that suck it out of them.  It's the culture.

[Sensei]

I think the system of math education in my high school was pretty good in how it was set up. The most advanced students in my school having taken a year of algebra and a year of geometry in middle school, took a year of Algebra, followed by a trigonometry course and two years of AP Calculus. We actually had a top 10 best Mu Alpha Theta team in the nation the year I graduated, and I was on it.

[David S]

In addition to the basic 3Rs schools should teach;
Geography
History
Government with special attention on the constitution
Science
Economics
Financial skills for living which would include understanding investing, and mortgages.

[Sensei]

In addition to the basic 3Rs schools should teach;
Geography
History
Government with special attention on the constitution
Science
Economics
Financial skills for living which would include understanding investing, and mortgages.

yes. ESPECIALLY geography. Most people can't find Iraq on a map.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

The problem lies largely in the fact that the lives of most teenagers require little to no knowledge on anything an most are too dumb and/or short-sighted to care abuot the distant future, and hence uninterested in learning things. That is why drills and grades are needed to make kids emerge from their teens with at least some shreds of knowledge.

Now perhaps you're experience is different from mine but generally I find this not to be case, that most teenagers and young people are intellectually curious to a degree though that is mostly sucked out of kids during their early schooling for various reasons. Of course a commodity based culture which isn't based around the idea of knowledge hardly helps.

You're right that intellectual curiosity is present in all young people, however it's not the schools that suck it out of them.  It's the culture.

I think it's about half and half, the actual ratio depending on the individual child. Also alot of Parenting comes into this aswell of course.