What is wrong with public schools?

[opebo]

Little to no prestige.  Status is important these days, and public schooling offers almost none.

Haha, a man who understand his society! 

Now just go a little further, Fuzzy, and you'll be where I am.  Just think about what makes status (hint - there's no status in being the one with the bootheel on his neck).

[Tetro Kornbluth]

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Oh I never doubted it, and what you said there is certainly true in many cases. But as I wish to point out I was mainly referring to what is being taught in those schools, though I have nothing in principle against the idea of a school; or of doing sports or having plays or concerts, etc.. Actually I think that should be encouraged.

[afleitch]

Nothing, i'm sure. I was at a private school, but it offered a different style of education and a different environment for learning. I can't compare but it suited me. As long as the school suits the student and the student suits the school then it's fine.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Nothing, i'm sure. I was at a private school, but it offered a different style of education and a different environment for learning. I can't compare but it suited me. As long as the school suits the student and the student suits the school then it's fine.

And what does "Suit the Student" mean?

[afleitch]

Nothing, i'm sure. I was at a private school, but it offered a different style of education and a different environment for learning. I can't compare but it suited me. As long as the school suits the student and the student suits the school then it's fine.

And what does "Suit the Student" mean?

The school I went to was quiet, it was away from people who had bullied me when I was little and was academically minded with a recognition of individual talents within the school that the local state school did not, at the admission of my older brother who chose to go there, offered. The school I went to suited me - thats what I mean. Many friends of mine thrived at the local school as it suited their needs.

[SPC]

maybe the fact that they are one of the elements of the Communist Manifesto, for starters. IN addition, it's never a good idea to let the state be in charge of education, because then they will be able to brainwash the masses into accepting almost any former of expanding government.

[jokerman]

No responses to my thoughts?  I'm suprised.

Snowguy's school sounds like they really know what they're doing.  I respect a community with a good education system.

[memphis]

On that I'd have to disagree with you. Students who went to Stuyvesant High School or Bergen County Academies or any other really, really prominent public school get just as much recognition as students who went to Phillips Andover. Honestly, I think you're just kind of isolated from the appreciation of that sort of recognition.

I went to the 11th ranked public high school in the state and we get no special recognition.  The Pingry school, which is in the same town, is held in much higher regard than my school.  Same situation with Delbarton and Immaculata, which are both very nearby.

Pingry School? Who? I think you're overstating the local prominence of private schools as opposed to prominence where it matters, on the national stage (and in the minds of college admissions officers).

I live in a cluster of some of the wealthiest, most power-obsessed, label-loving towns in the country.  All anyone talks about all through high school is how we compare to each other, other high schools, private schools, and how that applies to what colleges we'll get into.  You can go down any street in all of my area and count maybe one car out of ten that doesn't have some kind of nationally recognized University plastered across it.  We are obsessed with image and prestige, moreso than I've ever seen anywhere else I've been. 

I'll keep that in mind next time you're going on about how great New Jersey is.

[Verily]

On that I'd have to disagree with you. Students who went to Stuyvesant High School or Bergen County Academies or any other really, really prominent public school get just as much recognition as students who went to Phillips Andover. Honestly, I think you're just kind of isolated from the appreciation of that sort of recognition.

I went to the 11th ranked public high school in the state and we get no special recognition.  The Pingry school, which is in the same town, is held in much higher regard than my school.  Same situation with Delbarton and Immaculata, which are both very nearby.

Pingry School? Who? I think you're overstating the local prominence of private schools as opposed to prominence where it matters, on the national stage (and in the minds of college admissions officers).

First of all, that's not the point.  The point is that my high school, one of the best in the country, is not nearly as respected as a comparable private school.  That's what this is about, not the prominence of Pingry.  We're talking about prestige in public high school versus private high school.  Secondly, a friend of mine failed out of Pingry and still got into Villanova.  There aren't many places you can fail out of and still get into a top notch University.

By the way, it's completely ridiculous to think that where I grew up is out of the loop in this matter.  I live in a cluster of some of the wealthiest, most power-obsessed, label-loving towns in the country.  All anyone talks about all through high school is how we compare to each other, other high schools, private schools, and how that applies to what colleges we'll get into.  You can go down any street in all of my area and count maybe one car out of ten that doesn't have some kind of nationally recognized University plastered across it.  We are obsessed with image and prestige, moreso than I've ever seen anywhere else I've been.  There must not be a single person in the town I grew up in that is not aware of the exact recognitions of all the surrounding public and private schools.  And I haven't heard of any of the schools you listed either.  The ones I listed are nationally recognized and applauded for their excellence, as well as being among the most selective and prestigious.

First off, if Villanova is top-notch, we have some inherent disagreements about college quality (at least at the undergraduate level).

In any case, your particularly community may be image-obsessed (it doesn't surprise me in the least), but whether you and your community perceive it as affecting college admissions has nothing to do with whether it does affect college admissions. Frankly, the only advantage private school students have in college admissions (and I say this as a former private school student myself) is better advising, which has nothing to do with "prestige".

[bullmoose88]

Villanova's a good school, would I say it is an elite school? Hell no.

Then again, Verily might view Top Notch as being the same as elite, and Fezzy taking a much broader (say US news and World Report, top 50/100 view).

It would be interesting to get the forum's thoughts on the prestige of LACs and Universities.

[Gustaf]

I have yet to hear one criticism of public schools that applies to the one I went to, therefore I see no reason for the abolishment of them.

BRTD's 100 Greatest Hits of the World's Worse Arguments just goes on and on and on...

But, hey, I have yet to hear one criticism of private schools that applies to the one I went to, therefore I see no reason not to make all schools private. So here we have to exactly alike, thus equally valid arguments that contradict each other. Is logic tumbling down? Is the universe imploding? Or is BRTD yet again completely clueless as to what constitutes a good basis for policy decisions?

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

On that I'd have to disagree with you. Students who went to Stuyvesant High School or Bergen County Academies or any other really, really prominent public school get just as much recognition as students who went to Phillips Andover. Honestly, I think you're just kind of isolated from the appreciation of that sort of recognition.

I went to the 11th ranked public high school in the state and we get no special recognition.  The Pingry school, which is in the same town, is held in much higher regard than my school.  Same situation with Delbarton and Immaculata, which are both very nearby.

Pingry School? Who? I think you're overstating the local prominence of private schools as opposed to prominence where it matters, on the national stage (and in the minds of college admissions officers).

First of all, that's not the point.  The point is that my high school, one of the best in the country, is not nearly as respected as a comparable private school.  That's what this is about, not the prominence of Pingry.  We're talking about prestige in public high school versus private high school.  Secondly, a friend of mine failed out of Pingry and still got into Villanova.  There aren't many places you can fail out of and still get into a top notch University.

By the way, it's completely ridiculous to think that where I grew up is out of the loop in this matter.  I live in a cluster of some of the wealthiest, most power-obsessed, label-loving towns in the country.  All anyone talks about all through high school is how we compare to each other, other high schools, private schools, and how that applies to what colleges we'll get into.  You can go down any street in all of my area and count maybe one car out of ten that doesn't have some kind of nationally recognized University plastered across it.  We are obsessed with image and prestige, moreso than I've ever seen anywhere else I've been.  There must not be a single person in the town I grew up in that is not aware of the exact recognitions of all the surrounding public and private schools.  And I haven't heard of any of the schools you listed either.  The ones I listed are nationally recognized and applauded for their excellence, as well as being among the most selective and prestigious.

I feel my economic score becoming negative just reading that.

[Јas]

I have yet to hear one criticism of public schools that applies to the one I went to, therefore I see no reason for the abolishment of them.

BRTD's 100 Greatest Hits of the World's Worse Arguments just goes on and on and on...

But, hey, I have yet to hear one criticism of private schools that applies to the one I went to, therefore I see no reason not to make all schools private. So here we have to exactly alike, thus equally valid arguments that contradict each other. Is logic tumbling down? Is the universe imploding? Or is BRTD yet again completely clueless as to what constitutes a good basis for policy decisions?

Silly Gustaf, logic has no place in BRTD-land. Your 'arguments' have no place here!

[Gabu]

Haha, it gives us a gateway to the elite.  We're just that important.

Jesus, no offense, but if your attitude is representative of your average resident of New Jersey, I'm staying the f**k away from New Jersey.

[Gustaf]

Haha, it gives us a gateway to the elite.  We're just that important.

Jesus, no offense, but if your attitude is representative of your average resident of New Jersey, I'm staying the f**k away from New Jersey.

It has to be, since he's from New Jersey.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

My argument is that since there are public schools that are doing fine, why should they be abolished?

[Alcon]

My argument is that since there are public schools that are doing fine, why should they be abolished?

Because the determining factor should be whether it is better in net, not if one is doing well.

[Hash]

Gloucester High School represents the problem with public schools. Colonel By represents what is good with public schools. If most public schools were more or less like CB, then there'd be nothing wrong with them. If it's like GHS, then...

[ilikeverin]

By the way, it's completely ridiculous to think that where I grew up is out of the loop in this matter.  I live in a cluster of some of the wealthiest, most power-obsessed, label-loving towns in the country.  All anyone talks about all through high school is how we compare to each other, other high schools, private schools, and how that applies to what colleges we'll get into.  You can go down any street in all of my area and count maybe one car out of ten that doesn't have some kind of nationally recognized University plastered across it.  We are obsessed with image and prestige, moreso than I've ever seen anywhere else I've been.  There must not be a single person in the town I grew up in that is not aware of the exact recognitions of all the surrounding public and private schools.  And I haven't heard of any of the schools you listed either.  The ones I listed are nationally recognized and applauded for their excellence, as well as being among the most selective and prestigious.

I have a brochure for Williams College which says that about 52% of their students went to a public school.  Admittedly, this is lower than the nationwide proportion of publicly educated students, but that doesn't change the fact that more than half of the attendees of one of the most prestigious private schools in the country (ranked #1 among SLAC by U.S. News and World Report- I ignore my extreme hesitation about U.S. News's rankings to make a point) received a public school education in some form or another.

Besides, your point about everyone spazzing about colleges isn't at all confined to your supposedly "amazingly elitist" locale.  Look, the fact that people spazz about colleges has nothing to do with where you live and everything to do with their academic record.  People who are motivated to succeed will naturally go crazy in their college search, because, to them, academics mean so much (not to mention some parents are really obsessed with their kids going to a "good college"... I have plenty of Asian friends ) that they will sacrifice almost everything to go to a "good quality" school.

Not that the differences between prestigious and non-prestigious universities mean all that much besides differences in tuition, anyway; I'm sure you will have lots of anecdotes and "common sense" (read: "culturally-based assumptions") to "refute" me, but I have read several times (generally in magazines' "College Issues") that there is only a limited correlation between one's first career wages and college selectivity and very little between wages and selectivity after that.  The college experience is, primarily, whatever the student makes of it.  Someone could have a horrible time at somewhere like Columbia (the Beats come to mind), just like someone could have a wonderfully productive time at a large state institution (my brother is doing just fine at Michigan State University; he might get published as an undergrad! ).  Now, don't get me wrong; I'll be applying to a lot of those "elitist" private institutions that I appear to be criticizing here.  But I like to tell myself that said schools offer things that appeal to me in general (Brown and Amherst are free of distribution requirements/core curricula) and environments I feel I could thrive in (Swarthmore was delightfully nerdy).  But that doesn't change the fact that the people who are applying to less selective schools have the possibility to get just as good of an education as I will (hopefully!) receive myself.

[Nym90]

Actually BRTD does have a point, in as much as the existence of even one good public school would serve as proof positive that the concept of public schools per se isn't 100 percent to blame for the failings that many of them have.

Of course that's going to be true of pretty much any group. I'm sure there are a couple Nazis who are very nice people.

I think the biggest challenge public schools have is class sizes that are too large, and too little parental involvement in the education of their children and in instilling a respect for the value of education at a young age (since public schools don't have the luxury of rejecting the problem kids). Teacher pay is also overall way too low given the level of education and skills required to be a successful one.

[opebo]

Little to no prestige.  Status is important these days, and public schooling offers almost none.

Haha, a man who understand his society! 

Now just go a little further, Fuzzy, and you'll be where I am.  Just think about what makes status (hint - there's no status in being the one with the bootheel on his neck).

Yeah...except I'll never be the one with the bootheel on my neck.  I'm a privileged owner remember?

Well no, you misunderstood my post.. you're the one with your bootheel on the neck of the working class.  I think the proper formulation for what we all hope happens to your class is 'their blood will run in the streets'.

First of all, that's not the point.  The point is that my high school, one of the best in the country, is not nearly as respected as a comparable private school.  That's what this is about, not the prominence of Pingry.  We're talking about prestige in public high school versus private high school.  Secondly, a friend of mine failed out of Pingry and still got into Villanova.  There aren't many places you can fail out of and still get into a top notch University.

By the way, it's completely ridiculous to think that where I grew up is out of the loop in this matter.  I live in a cluster of some of the wealthiest, most power-obsessed, label-loving towns in the country.  All anyone talks about all through high school is how we compare to each other, other high schools, private schools, and how that applies to what colleges we'll get into.  You can go down any street in all of my area and count maybe one car out of ten that doesn't have some kind of nationally recognized University plastered across it.  We are obsessed with image and prestige, moreso than I've ever seen anywhere else I've been.  There must not be a single person in the town I grew up in that is not aware of the exact recognitions of all the surrounding public and private schools.  And I haven't heard of any of the schools you listed either.  The ones I listed are nationally recognized and applauded for their excellence, as well as being among the most selective and prestigious.

I feel my economic score becoming negative just reading that.

Haha!  Straha, you are alright.

[Colin]

On that I'd have to disagree with you. Students who went to Stuyvesant High School or Bergen County Academies or any other really, really prominent public school get just as much recognition as students who went to Phillips Andover. Honestly, I think you're just kind of isolated from the appreciation of that sort of recognition.

I went to the 11th ranked public high school in the state and we get no special recognition.  The Pingry school, which is in the same town, is held in much higher regard than my school.  Same situation with Delbarton and Immaculata, which are both very nearby.

Pingry School? Who? I think you're overstating the local prominence of private schools as opposed to prominence where it matters, on the national stage (and in the minds of college admissions officers).

First of all, that's not the point.  The point is that my high school, one of the best in the country, is not nearly as respected as a comparable private school.  That's what this is about, not the prominence of Pingry.  We're talking about prestige in public high school versus private high school.  Secondly, a friend of mine failed out of Pingry and still got into Villanova.  There aren't many places you can fail out of and still get into a top notch University.

By the way, it's completely ridiculous to think that where I grew up is out of the loop in this matter.  I live in a cluster of some of the wealthiest, most power-obsessed, label-loving towns in the country.  All anyone talks about all through high school is how we compare to each other, other high schools, private schools, and how that applies to what colleges we'll get into.  You can go down any street in all of my area and count maybe one car out of ten that doesn't have some kind of nationally recognized University plastered across it.  We are obsessed with image and prestige, moreso than I've ever seen anywhere else I've been.  There must not be a single person in the town I grew up in that is not aware of the exact recognitions of all the surrounding public and private schools.  And I haven't heard of any of the schools you listed either.  The ones I listed are nationally recognized and applauded for their excellence, as well as being among the most selective and prestigious.

I feel my economic score becoming negative just reading that.

You should watch My Super Sweet 16 then. That show made me want to become a Communist after about 15 minutes. It's probably the best anti-capitalist propoganda ever made.

[Bono]

On that I'd have to disagree with you. Students who went to Stuyvesant High School or Bergen County Academies or any other really, really prominent public school get just as much recognition as students who went to Phillips Andover. Honestly, I think you're just kind of isolated from the appreciation of that sort of recognition.

I went to the 11th ranked public high school in the state and we get no special recognition.  The Pingry school, which is in the same town, is held in much higher regard than my school.  Same situation with Delbarton and Immaculata, which are both very nearby.

Pingry School? Who? I think you're overstating the local prominence of private schools as opposed to prominence where it matters, on the national stage (and in the minds of college admissions officers).

First of all, that's not the point.  The point is that my high school, one of the best in the country, is not nearly as respected as a comparable private school.  That's what this is about, not the prominence of Pingry.  We're talking about prestige in public high school versus private high school.  Secondly, a friend of mine failed out of Pingry and still got into Villanova.  There aren't many places you can fail out of and still get into a top notch University.

By the way, it's completely ridiculous to think that where I grew up is out of the loop in this matter.  I live in a cluster of some of the wealthiest, most power-obsessed, label-loving towns in the country.  All anyone talks about all through high school is how we compare to each other, other high schools, private schools, and how that applies to what colleges we'll get into.  You can go down any street in all of my area and count maybe one car out of ten that doesn't have some kind of nationally recognized University plastered across it.  We are obsessed with image and prestige, moreso than I've ever seen anywhere else I've been.  There must not be a single person in the town I grew up in that is not aware of the exact recognitions of all the surrounding public and private schools.  And I haven't heard of any of the schools you listed either.  The ones I listed are nationally recognized and applauded for their excellence, as well as being among the most selective and prestigious.

I feel my economic score becoming negative just reading that.

You should watch My Super Sweet 16 then. That show made me want to become a Communist after about 15 minutes. It's probably the best anti-capitalist propoganda ever made.

That explains a lot.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

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Strongly Agree.

Though here in Ireland I've often found that the least materalistic segment of society (and here I show a great deal of Prejudice) is Upper Middle class semi-Urban types; especially those whose families have been settled in a certain area for a long time.

[Colin]

That explains a lot.

Obviously, comrade, I know support the dictatorship of the proletariat and the nationalization of all capital. All power to the proletariat!

Really Bono just because I believe that the government should provide some services that makes me a communist. Then again you probably consider anyone in favour of government an oppressive authoritarian.