Communism and fascism
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  Communism and fascism
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Question: In general, are communism and fascism more...
#1
similar to each other
 
#2
different from each other
 
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Author Topic: Communism and fascism  (Read 6863 times)
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BRTD
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« on: November 05, 2007, 06:58:19 PM »

?
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2007, 07:00:02 PM »

If it is assumed that by "Communism", you mean "Marxist"-Leninism (and all later versions such as Stalinism, Maoism and so on) then option one. Obviously.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2007, 08:12:09 PM »

Yes, in a couple ways.  Both preach the value of the group over the value of the individual - the nation-state for fascism and the proletariat for communism. Both are meant to be sold as good for the people in theory and both end up with some degree of tyranny and oppression when applied.
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Beet
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« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2007, 09:54:14 PM »

Obviously they are very similiar or very different depending on one's perspective. But both fall under the category of the modern state, and justified their suppression of individualism, as Michael Burleigh and others effectively argue, by seeking to replace Christianity. Their failure obviously was the greatest cause of the rehabilitation of conservatism after 1945.
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frihetsivrare
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« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2007, 12:00:10 AM »

True communism and true fascism are totally different because ideal communism would involve communes and people running an area as a group with no leader.  However when put into practice over millions of people communism and fascism are very similar.  True fascism is very close to what people think today, if not spot on.  Communism works much better with smaller groups of people.  When put over a very large number of people it doesn't work (examples: USSR, China).  Fascism doesn't work in any sized group. 

Communist economies do not work at all with a large military (examples: USSR, North Korea).  The Soviets also had an empire to maintain, which made it worse.  Both types with large militaries tend to have extremely egotistical leaders who make having a military seem like a bad thing.  Fascist nations tend to be more expantionist (example: Italy 1922-43).  That bogs down the fascist economy.  All in all it is not good to have communism or fascism and have a huge military.
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opebo
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« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2007, 03:03:08 AM »

They are obviously far more different from each other than similar to one another, in the sense that their similarities are those that all systems of government share.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2007, 05:01:35 AM »

They are obviously far more different from each other than similar to one another, in the sense that their similarities are those that all systems of government share.

Even by your standards this is contemptible idiocy. "Congratulations".
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Gabu
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« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2007, 05:59:15 AM »

In theory, they're quite different.  Communism taken to its theoretical end results in the complete abolition of government, as the people become self-regulating.  In practice, however, communism seems to have a rather distinct tendency to bear an awful lot of resemblances to fascism when in place for a sufficient length of time.
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Middle-aged Europe
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« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2007, 06:34:58 AM »

If I could, I would basically vote for both options.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2007, 07:10:37 AM »

If it is assumed that by "Communism", you mean "Marxist"-Leninism (and all later versions such as Stalinism, Maoism and so on) then option one. Obviously.

Both ideologies were made up by clearly similiar minds.

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opebo
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« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2007, 10:19:28 AM »

They are obviously far more different from each other than similar to one another, in the sense that their similarities are those that all systems of government share.

Even by your standards this is contemptible idiocy. "Congratulations".

Your post seems intended to insult, gnome.  But I noticed you make no attempt to refute.  I find it amusing that a lot of you fellows can convince yourselves that it was all Hitler or Stalin's fault and completely ignore the brutality inherent in our society.
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Person Man
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« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2007, 11:23:46 AM »

In theory, different.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2007, 11:33:49 AM »


The problem is with communism, well both ideologies really but especially communism is that there is so much fracture between different ideological schools that it's impossible refer to "theory" as there is so many. Plus despite many similarties in styles of government there were still drastic differences between the Italy of Mussolini and Stalin's Russia - especially in Economics.

But all the above shows that I prefer the term Marxist-Leninism to refer to all the branches of Communism which have been applied in RL.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2007, 12:17:31 PM »

Your post seems intended to insult, gnome.  But I noticed you make no attempt to refute.  I find it amusing that a lot of you fellows can convince yourselves that it was all Hitler or Stalin's fault and completely ignore the brutality inherent in our society.

Somewhere between 20 and 50 (obviously accurate statistics don't exist) million people were murdered by the Soviet government between 1917 and 1953.

Try again.
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opebo
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« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2007, 12:52:43 PM »

Your post seems intended to insult, gnome.  But I noticed you make no attempt to refute.  I find it amusing that a lot of you fellows can convince yourselves that it was all Hitler or Stalin's fault and completely ignore the brutality inherent in our society.

Somewhere between 20 and 50 (obviously accurate statistics don't exist) million people were murdered by the Soviet government between 1917 and 1953.

Try again.

So?  The Nazi government has an impressive figure, as does the american one.  Lesser States bring up the rear with smaller figures, people imprisoned, etc.  Killing people is a necessary part of maintaining privilege.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2007, 01:01:39 PM »

So?  The Nazi government has an impressive figure,

I don't think I ever claimed that the crimes of the U.S.S.R were especially unique.

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You can't seriously believe that rubbish. Not unless you're a fourteen year old Trot.
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Wakie
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« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2007, 01:05:29 PM »

True communism and true fascism are totally different because ideal communism would involve communes and people running an area as a group with no leader.  However when put into practice over millions of people communism and fascism are very similar.  True fascism is very close to what people think today, if not spot on.  Communism works much better with smaller groups of people.  When put over a very large number of people it doesn't work (examples: USSR, China).  Fascism doesn't work in any sized group. 

Communist economies do not work at all with a large military (examples: USSR, North Korea).  The Soviets also had an empire to maintain, which made it worse.  Both types with large militaries tend to have extremely egotistical leaders who make having a military seem like a bad thing.  Fascist nations tend to be more expantionist (example: Italy 1922-43).  That bogs down the fascist economy.  All in all it is not good to have communism or fascism and have a huge military.
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opebo
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« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2007, 01:19:14 PM »

as does the american one.  Lesser States bring up the rear with smaller figures, people imprisoned, etc.  Killing people is a necessary part of maintaining privilege.

You can't seriously believe that rubbish. Not unless you're a fourteen year old Trot.

Of course I believe it.  It is generally accepted historical fact.  The US has slaughtered millions in wars last century and more recently quite a few in Iraq.  It kills off lots of people through the prison system and outright execution.  Lastly millions have been killed through various results of the implementation of the american power heirarchy, such as poverty, lack of health care, crime, etc.   Of course the most obvious criticism of my point is that america is actually fascist rather than a third system.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2007, 01:33:19 PM »

I will note here that the U.S government is not responsible for the murder of a minimum of 20 million of its own citizens over a period of 35 years or so.
Asserting that there is something normal about the crimes of the Soviet Union manages to be factually inaccurate, intellectually dishonest and deeply offensive all at the same time.

Again, "congratulations".
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Gustaf
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« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2007, 03:26:00 PM »

There is no such thing as Communism in theory. Even in theory the transition phase towards the ideal society is really, really long.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2007, 04:06:39 PM »

There is no such thing as Communism in theory. Even in theory the transition phase towards the ideal society is really, really long.

True; but I was referring to what Marx called the immediate stage or the "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" (Man, Marx must be powering the whole of China by the spinning in his grave he's doing as result of the amount of times those words have been abused.) which was really a melodramatic term for equilatarian democracy. You could argue I guess, that those words are contradictory but that's not the point. The point is that no-one ever really reached what Marx intended or had predicted. (But that's a very different thing at together..)
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Gustaf
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« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2007, 03:41:42 AM »

I'd just like to note that IIRC Rob is pretty much in agreement with Opebo on this one - I feel with you Al, since I've had the same discussion myself.
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Undisguised Sockpuppet
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« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2007, 06:53:23 PM »

Different from each other.
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