Which is the best form of schooling?

[Ban my account ffs!]

Unless your parents are licensed teachers, there is no reason to be home schooled.

The problem with home schooling is that you deprive children of important social interaction with other children and parents often indoctrinate their kids with their beliefs (be they liberal or conservative).

And the problem with forcing people to send their kids to state run schools is that it pisses on the Constitution.

When did I advocate forcing children to attend state run schools?  I simply think they are the best and most affordable option for most children.  Most private schools charge tuition that is right up there with public school expenditures and on top of that public schools must bus the children to and from school and also educate children that require special needs and special attention that can be much more expensive.

Again, the private schools take the cream of the crop and then people who advocate private education look at private schools (a bad example) as the example of what schools would be like in a private system.  It simply is not the case, and I don't need to cite that.  If you don't believe me, go and find opposing evidence and show me.

Also, having a system of public schools is by no means unconstitutional.  The Minnesota state constitution, for example, requires the state to maintain a system of uniform public schools throughout the state.

Also, happening to live in a bad district is no excuse here as we have open enrollment, which means parents may enroll their children in other districts if they don't find theirs to be up to par.

[Willy Woz]

Home schooling is a joke

Excuse me?

Of course I have a profoundly low opinion of the Religious Right, which completely fails at educating children just as it fails at pretty much everything except for perpetuating irrational hatred, but it seems that many people conveniently disregard the existence of liberal homeschoolers. I have encountered a number of previously homeschooled fellow Mathematics majors here at UC Berkeley and know many more from my other college, and I am friends with other homeschoolers from an alternative family education organisation in Santa Cruz. Just because fundamentalist Christian losers in Nebraska adamantly refuse to allow their children to learn about the real world doesn't mean that everyone throughout the country functions in the exact same way. I'm certainly not ignorant enough to conclude that all public schools are useless simply because the public schools in my home district are total jokes.

As for the original question, I don't have any strong preferences; it really depends on the individual child. I didn't ever attend a public grade school, but I am very satisfied with public universities. UC Berkeley is significantly cheaper than Stanford University and I love the culture; whilst I am applying to public universities for graduate school mostly because of financial concerns, it is also because I simply don't fit in at private universities. I dislike private institutions in general because of the festering elitism and socioeconomic issues, though I wouldn't call for them to be banned.

Some people are intrigued that I am not a huge advocate of homeschooling, but it's mostly because I absolutely hate the association with the Religious Right.

Now, I suppose that I should hasten back to reviewing for my "joke" Complex Analysis exam, but I felt somewhat compelled to get my two cents in.

I notice a few things wrong with this post. First, thank God I am a Catholic, because if I had been a fundamentalist hearing this I would be quite mad. You basically showed the same utter religious bigotry and intolerance which you keep claiming you are against. Muslims are religious conservatives, too, and does that mean you openly show your hatred and bigotry against them. This is basically the religious equivalent of saying "I hate jigaboos" or something.

Second, I admit that homeschooling does have a certain escapist/hippie/Marxist aspect, but here in the USA a majority of home educated children are quite religious. The most recent surveys indicate that over 70% regularly go to church, far higher than the 40% of the total population. Here in NC, almost every homeschool group has at least a small Christian element, although there are a couple secular ones in Asheville. AR, another famous homeschooling state, has an even higher ratio of Christian homeschoolers.

[Hash]

Public, in fact my new public school is better than my old private school in Riyadh

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Thanks for ignoring my previous questions. Anyway your response just confirmed pretty much all my prejudices of you; despite how "unconvential" you wish to seem you still think of education as a conveyor belt of children; it's entire function is to produce workers (to put an Opeboesque flavour on it) and if that children don't find into that straight jacket you create for them then they will just fail at life and be horrible people.

I didn't answer your questions because I didn't have the time then. Although granted, anyone else here could answer or argue with you, as you are THE ONLY PERSON ON THE FORUM advocating this bizarre system that I still don't understand how exactly it works (and please don't respond without another one of those 2,000 word articles that constantly beats around the main point).

BRTD, what do you think should be taught in schools?

Early on basic skills needed for life (like reading and basic mathematics), and later advanced material that would be necessary in employment.

What is the function of a school, or of an education for that matter?

To provide people with what is listed above.

What do you think is being taught in state schools as of now or as of, say, 50 years ago?

50 years ago - don't know, don't care, it doesn't matter anymore
today - I outlined my high school curriculum in an earlier post. 4 levels of English, some US History, basic sciences (Chemistry, Biology, Geology) and various electives.

Is it really that different?

Depends on what you mean by "different". There's no more red baiting type things, and of course the changes in science and history have been huge, but the overall way it's done probably hasn't changed massively. But why does it matter? This is like saying there's something wrong with our transportations system because it hasn't changed much, we just use cars instead of horses.

What do you believe is the function of a state school and so on?

First, quit with this stupid f**king "state school" term that I have never ever heard in my life before this forum. Second, the answer to this question lies in all the answers above.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

What dost thee mean by "best"? As a matter of principle I think that schools should be in the public sector, but refusing to acknowledge that a private education gives people an unfair advantage in life is foolish. The trouble with private education isn't that it's bad for the children that have it, but for those that don't.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

What dost thee mean by "best"? As a matter of principle I think that schools should be in the public sector, but refusing to acknowledge that a private education gives people an unfair advantage in life is foolish. The trouble with private education isn't that it's bad for the children that have it, but for those that don't.

I never did (I *think* that was referring to me) - I realize that right now the alternatives to the system of state schooling (it's actually quite a common term BRTD, do you know in the UK what is known as a "Public school" is actually in reality a form of Private schooling?) especially for those of lower-lower-middle income and social brackets are not particulary feasible. My issue here is with agendas, eventually I would like it if all schools were communally-run and not run for profit (which is a HORRIBLE idea) or for the purpose of growing one into an ideology or into a state. I realize that dream is far, far away for many different reasons.

My problem is that state schools are undemocratic by their nature and have hierachial structures built into them; they also seem to have a monopoly on defining "Intelligent Children" (Ie. Those who well in school) and those who are considered "Failures". Admittely this was worse in the previous generations due to, among other things, corporal punishment and "Respecting your elders" and we have made some process, but the same structual remains.

@BRTD: Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the notion of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_curriculum as my whole idea on based it. It is (for various reasons) something which is rarely discussed outside of certain intellectual-social spheres and that's probably the reason why imo some of the entrenched liberals here seem to support compulsory public\state schooling (State schooling = Schools run by the state, that is what you are supporting, right?) as they see that option in opposition to the "conservative" option which often seems to be "Let's get rid of public schooling because it's giving different ideas to the ideas we want to give them" (vide StatesRights).

After all a classroom does not to be structured in the way it is, a teacher does not need to be at the front, the desks (why desks?) need to scattered in front of him\her, etc as I have said before the classroom is structured quite similiarly to an office (or even, to slightly stretch things, a prison) this is no fault of the individuals in the process, just the process itself is bad. State schooling as it exists right now is more about helping children adapt to social reality of the present then questioning and developing different ideas about social reality or allowing children to develop personally. In other words, the schooling system is not really democratic. THAT is my problem with State schooling; which because of various special interests involved in government (Financial and commercial interests want people to adapt to their needs, ergo that previous Wilson quote, also the government can (and does) use education as a security wedge to promote Status quo ideas. And what could be more threatening then questioning the Status Quo? BTW I also believe this to be case with Private schools at the moment aswell; I went to a semi-private after all. And my experience there aswell as those of my friends are part of what shapes my current opinions.)

Of course that is only an overview of my ideas; to give some sort of real flavour I'd have to post another 2,000 article and that would be horrible. That or read Ivan Illich, it's your choose.

[Jake]

Home schooling, or at least schooling where a few families pitch in and group educate the children, combined with social activities outside the home are the best.

The way public education is operated, everything from the classrooms, to the teaching, to the cafeterias, to the curriculum, is horrible and counterproductive to producing happy and thoughtful kids.

[opebo]

"We want one class to have a liberal education. We want another class, a very much larger class of necessity, to forgo the privilege of a liberal education and fit themselves to perform specific difficult manual tasks."

Yeah, I love that quotation.  Though I suppose nowadays most people would be forced into some kind of technical or business education not really focused on 'manual' tasks. 

Makes me think of Down and Out in Paris and London, where Blair talks about how living in poverty is actually not easier for the poor for their lack of education, but actually worse.

[Inverted Things]

Home schooling, or at least schooling where a few families pitch in and group educate the children, combined with social activities outside the home are the best.

The way public education is operated, everything from the classrooms, to the teaching, to the cafeterias, to the curriculum, is horrible and counterproductive to producing happy and thoughtful kids.

Well said, sir!

[minionofmidas]

Oh for the record I would support schooling along these lines (though this is not in specifics what I would have in mind):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerhill_School

Just to get this straight - do you support compulsory schooling somewhat along the lines of Summerhill (with local variations) for everybody?

From what I've read so far (and I haven't read all of the thread) that would seem to be your position. In which case you are for state schooling (though not centralized. The local community is also the state really.), you just want the state schools to be changed. Which is a completely different issue, really (although one I more or less agree with you on).

[afleitch]

The best form of schooling is the one that suits the individual child.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Oh for the record I would support schooling along these lines (though this is not in specifics what I would have in mind):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerhill_School

Just to get this straight - do you support compulsory schooling somewhat along the lines of Summerhill (with local variations) for everybody?

From what I've read so far (and I haven't read all of the thread) that would seem to be your position. In which case you are for state schooling (though not centralized. The local community is also the state really.), you just want the state schools to be changed. Which is a completely different issue, really (although one I more or less agree with you on).

No, not quite actually as I said that is not entirely what I am for. I was just simplifying for BRTD.  I will say though that I would prefer a Summerhill type system for children over what we have now but what I am really for is:

1) Removing the arbitary division between school and 'real life': schooling should not be held in some abstract enviornment away from the 'real world' (whatever that is). Whether Summerhill does this or not is another question.
2) Make education focused not on training children into the needs of mass society but creating an education system which a) based around the idea of questioning, roughly similiar to the socratic method; ie. A more democratic form of education and b) By this allow the individual child to grow as citizen and as fully formed person in this system. Now I don't expect every child to be the next Voltaire (which is something my opponents in this seem to believe) but the idea is that education should be how the next generation can improve this world instead of fitting them in this present one. Idealistic? I suppose so; b
3) Ergo to this an education system shouldn't based around examinations and testing and 'targets' which is pretty much the opposite of what I have mind (and which often happens in state schools everywhere as a need to see 'how children are getting on' and to make rich parents choose private school to send little Johnny to.)

That's in a nutshell. Now here is my problem: Both the government and the community as it is at present have specific interests (financial, political, etc) not to develop such a system it is hard to reconsile with the state system as at present; ergo it is probably neccessary for such a system to develop outside the brackets of the current setup. Which is in all fairness, what is happening at the moment though obviously funding is a major problem in this. As for homeschooling, while I abhor the fundamentalist attempts to brainwash to brainwash their children a blanket ban against homeschooling would be imo in my view counterproductive.   
At present I'm thinking at that far distant plane in the future where I find a woman (It will happen!) and have children I will home school them, though of course depending on the social enviornment.

Also may I add that I do not think of my current plan as flawless; after all how achieves one aims is of essential importance. Even should my system somehow be favoured by the goverment of Ireland then I still think it would neccesary to keep private school and homeschooling legal as they can used to improve the current situation and to make the current status quo does not stagnate.

Btw, Lol@ Your signature.

[minionofmidas]

Oh for the record I would support schooling along these lines (though this is not in specifics what I would have in mind):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerhill_School

Just to get this straight - do you support compulsory schooling somewhat along the lines of Summerhill (with local variations) for everybody?

From what I've read so far (and I haven't read all of the thread) that would seem to be your position. In which case you are for state schooling (though not centralized. The local community is also the state really.), you just want the state schools to be changed. Which is a completely different issue, really (although one I more or less agree with you on).

No, not quite actually as I said that is not entirely what I am for.

Yes. I figured that. That wasn't the point.

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Got you... I think...
But then what to do about the fact that such "experimental" private schools attract only a specialized clientele not all that different, really, from "normal" private schools, and in parts (yeah, only in parts) for the exact same reason of keeping the riffraff out of your child's life?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

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Ah you see I told you ideal wasn't flawless. Yes that is an undoubted problem. But what can be done, I'd have to think about that. One thing I will say though is that supposedly liberal parents are often as bad if not worse in terms of thinking about "riffraff" then those of more conservative disposition. Which doesn't help my cause.. I know.