Which country has more freedom?

[2952-0-0]

All else being equal, here are their descriptions:

A: Privacy is taken extremely seriously here. Not only is it illegal to get wiretaps and eavesdrop without a warrent, it is very difficult to get a warrent. The law restricts what personal data companies are allowed to collect, and you don't even need to tell your name if you buy a cell phone.  Bank accounts are anonymous (like Swiss ones), and the respect for privacy is held in high esteem. However, taxes and business regulations are a good deal higher and stricter than in country B.

B: Here, taxes are low and businesses are given low amounts of regulation. Governments rarely wiretap and eavesdrop. However, every thing you do is collected by some corporation. Your income and monetary assets are supposed to be kept private, but credit agencies and marketing firms rountinely exchange it. The same goes with your address, education levels, and social life. All your spending habits, including where, when, and under what circumstances you make purchases, is known. Companies also monitor your social life in some way (for example, they exchange information on how often you visit bars, attend social functions, music concerts, all thanks to your credit card records). They also deploy cookies to monitor what sites you use on the internet, and phone companies randomly monitor conversations to determine the mood of consumers. An important distinction is that the government almost never engage in surveillance, and does not encourage those practices (but does not forbid it).

So to sum up, one country has high taxes and high business regulation, but guarantees that your private data is kept very secure. In the other, there are low taxes and low business regulations, but the private sector monitors your life extensively. The government does not engage in those practices. Which one has a higher degree of freedom?

[Lief 🗽]

A clearly. Just because it's a business taking away your freedom, not a government, doesn't mean that your freedom isn't being taken away.

[DownWithTheLeft]

B w/o a doubt.  The key is government sanctioned and taxes.  Country B not only maintains individual economic freedom, but it does not restrict business.  The government is doing nothing to restrict freedom.

[Verily]

B w/o a doubt.  The key is government sanctioned and taxes.  Country B not only maintains individual economic freedom, but it does not restrict business.  The government is doing nothing to restrict freedom.

I would say that corporations intruding into my privacy and my freedom is even worse than government intruding into my privacy and my freedom.

[Gabu]

B w/o a doubt.  The key is government sanctioned and taxes.  Country B not only maintains individual economic freedom, but it does not restrict business.  The government is doing nothing to restrict freedom.

The fact that the government is doing nothing to restrict freedom does not mean that freedom is unrestricted.

One of the biggest gripes I have with economic libertarians is the way in which they seem to believe that not government = necessarily good in every situation.

[John Dibble]

Assuming they are equal on all other issues, I say B on a technicality. You have less privacy in B, yes, but it seems to me the companies that gather the data don't do it with the aims of restricting freedom, but rather to monitor consumer trends in order to adjust their businesses to get people to buy their products more often. A on the other hand is more restrictive, even if the restrictions are designed to enhance individual privacy.

I say this because while privacy and freedom are concepts that are often held in the same regard, they aren't necessarily the same thing. Still, that being said I would prefer to live in country A. Security, freedom, and privacy are all things that often conflict with eachother and must be kept in balance.

[Ban my account ffs!]

I say A, because I believe it is important that government protects the individual's right to privacy.

It is important that government has more say in your privacy and actively protects it as government is for, by, and of the people, while businesses and corporations are not.

[Dr. Cynic]

Government A.

I'd rather have higher taxes than a bunch of plutocrats exchanging my private information and controlling my destiny. Country B may be more economically free, but Country A protects my individuality, and that's what I consider true freedom.

[opebo]

As we can see by the answers so far, right-wingers such as Republicans and Libertarians make an erroneous distinction between corporations and the State.  Most leftists do not.

Fellows, the State works for the corporations (owners) - there is no real difference between 'public' and 'private' power.

[Willy Woz]

Neither.

[Alcon]

Neither.

Either they have equal freedom or one is freer than the other.  You can't answer an either/or question with "neither."  It doesn't make sense.

[Bono]

Neither.

Either they have equal freedom or one is freer than the other.  You can't answer an either/or question with "neither."  It doesn't make sense.

Neither does the question.

[Alcon]

Neither.

Either they have equal freedom or one is freer than the other.  You can't answer an either/or question with "neither."  It doesn't make sense.

Neither does the question.

How doesn't it?

[Dr. Cynic]

Neither.

Either they have equal freedom or one is freer than the other.  You can't answer an either/or question with "neither."  It doesn't make sense.

Neither does the question.

How doesn't it?

It's an interpretive question, Bono. What do you interpret freedom to be?

[Bono]

Neither.

Either they have equal freedom or one is freer than the other.  You can't answer an either/or question with "neither."  It doesn't make sense.

Neither does the question.

How doesn't it?

It's an interpretive question, Bono. What do you interpret freedom to be?

Then why didn't he ask that instead of giving a loaded question?

[Dr. Cynic]

Neither.

Either they have equal freedom or one is freer than the other.  You can't answer an either/or question with "neither."  It doesn't make sense.

Neither does the question.

How doesn't it?

It's an interpretive question, Bono. What do you interpret freedom to be?

Then why didn't he ask that instead of giving a loaded question?

How is it loaded? Which country do you feel is more free. Based on what I've learned about you, you're likely to believe B is, and that's fine. Just say it.

[Bono]

Neither.

Either they have equal freedom or one is freer than the other.  You can't answer an either/or question with "neither."  It doesn't make sense.

Neither does the question.

How doesn't it?

It's an interpretive question, Bono. What do you interpret freedom to be?

Then why didn't he ask that instead of giving a loaded question?

How is it loaded? Which country do you feel is more free. Based on what I've learned about you, you're likely to believe B is, and that's fine. Just say it.

Because it's a false dichotomy.

[Verily]

Neither.

Either they have equal freedom or one is freer than the other.  You can't answer an either/or question with "neither."  It doesn't make sense.

Neither does the question.

How doesn't it?

It's an interpretive question, Bono. What do you interpret freedom to be?

Then why didn't he ask that instead of giving a loaded question?

How is it loaded? Which country do you feel is more free. Based on what I've learned about you, you're likely to believe B is, and that's fine. Just say it.

Because it's a false dichotomy.

That's the whole point; I can't imagine anyone would choose either of these to a less extreme version. Choose which one is less bad.

[Bono]

Neither.

Either they have equal freedom or one is freer than the other.  You can't answer an either/or question with "neither."  It doesn't make sense.

Neither does the question.

How doesn't it?

It's an interpretive question, Bono. What do you interpret freedom to be?

Then why didn't he ask that instead of giving a loaded question?

How is it loaded? Which country do you feel is more free. Based on what I've learned about you, you're likely to believe B is, and that's fine. Just say it.

Because it's a false dichotomy.

That's the whole point; I can't imagine anyone would choose either of these to a less extreme version. Choose which one is less bad.

But you're talking about ideal choices which would be in between. But my choice is orthogonal to these two, not a middle point.

[Verily]

Neither.

Either they have equal freedom or one is freer than the other.  You can't answer an either/or question with "neither."  It doesn't make sense.

Neither does the question.

How doesn't it?

It's an interpretive question, Bono. What do you interpret freedom to be?

Then why didn't he ask that instead of giving a loaded question?

How is it loaded? Which country do you feel is more free. Based on what I've learned about you, you're likely to believe B is, and that's fine. Just say it.

Because it's a false dichotomy.

That's the whole point; I can't imagine anyone would choose either of these to a less extreme version. Choose which one is less bad.

But you're talking about ideal choices which would be in between. But my choice is orthogonal to these two, not a middle point.

You're missing the point, intentionally so as to show how "special" you are. The question is presenting a dichotomy. There are two choices. Yes, dichotomies are rare in real life, and you should not have to choose between the two. That does not mean that you cannot answer the question.

And, of course, your fantasy world does, indeed, lie between these two points (or, rather, pretty much exactly at point B), but you'd rather not admit it.

[Хahar 🤔]

Certainly A, for all the reasons put above.

[Michael Z]

A clearly. Just because it's a business taking away your freedom, not a government, doesn't mean that your freedom isn't being taken away.

Spot on.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

B - you can boycott corporations and stuff legally - you can't legally boycott what the government institutes on you.

[dead0man]

Country B is more free. 

You don't HAVE to purchase things with a credit card.  You don't HAVE to surf the internet leaving cookies everywhere.  You don't HAVE to do buisness with companies that sell your info to the highest bidder.  In Country A, you HAVE to pay higher taxes and buiseness HAVE to deal with strict govt interference.  You are more free, by far, in country B.

[Michael Z]

Country B is more free. 

You don't HAVE to purchase things with a credit card.  You don't HAVE to surf the internet leaving cookies everywhere.  You don't HAVE to do buisness with companies that sell your info to the highest bidder.  In Country A, you HAVE to pay higher taxes and buiseness HAVE to deal with strict govt interference.  You are more free, by far, in country B.

It's not the issue of whether one purchases things or not, but whether credit card companies and corporations have access to your private details and liberally exchange them. Whether it's a government wiretapping you, or a company/business having access to your private details, they're both forms of surveillance, and I'm surprised to see many libertarians missing the connection between the two.

Also, note the description of country A - no wiretapping without a warrant, privacy is taken seriously, etc. I cannot comprehend how someone can regard taxation and relatively high business regulation as intrinsically worse and more intrusive than every individual being constantly monitored by private companies.