Which country has more freedom?

[Michael Z]

A clearly. Just because it's a business taking away your freedom, not a government, doesn't mean that your freedom isn't being taken away.

Spot on.

[Michael Z]

Country B is more free. 

You don't HAVE to purchase things with a credit card.  You don't HAVE to surf the internet leaving cookies everywhere.  You don't HAVE to do buisness with companies that sell your info to the highest bidder.  In Country A, you HAVE to pay higher taxes and buiseness HAVE to deal with strict govt interference.  You are more free, by far, in country B.

It's not the issue of whether one purchases things or not, but whether credit card companies and corporations have access to your private details and liberally exchange them. Whether it's a government wiretapping you, or a company/business having access to your private details, they're both forms of surveillance, and I'm surprised to see many libertarians missing the connection between the two.

Also, note the description of country A - no wiretapping without a warrant, privacy is taken seriously, etc. I cannot comprehend how someone can regard taxation and relatively high business regulation as intrinsically worse and more intrusive than every individual being constantly monitored by private companies.

[Michael Z]

Country B is more free. 

You don't HAVE to purchase things with a credit card.  You don't HAVE to surf the internet leaving cookies everywhere.  You don't HAVE to do buisness with companies that sell your info to the highest bidder.  In Country A, you HAVE to pay higher taxes and buiseness HAVE to deal with strict govt interference.  You are more free, by far, in country B.

It's not the issue of whether one purchases things or not, but whether credit card companies and corporations have access to your private details and liberally exchange them. Whether it's a government wiretapping you, or a company/business having access to your private details, they're both forms of surveillance, and I'm surprised to see many libertarians missing the connection between the two.

Also, note the description of country A - no wiretapping without a warrant, privacy is taken seriously, etc. I cannot comprehend how someone can regard taxation and relatively high business regulation as intrinsically worse and more intrusive than every individual being constantly monitored by private companies.

Sure, if you want to ignore my point, that makes perfect sense.  Citizens CHOSE who they want to do buisness with.  You don't get to CHOSE whether your country over taxes and over regulates you.  I cannot comprehend how someone can regaurd FORCED taxation and FORCED regulation as less intrusive than the ability to CHOSE where you want to spend your money.

I didn't ignore that point, it just doesn't make sense when you look at the basic crux of the comparison at hand - ie. a government that does not intrude in your private affairs versus corporations that do. "Forced taxation" is in my view not as bad as the Owellian scenario of loss of privacy and/or mass surveillance (be it from a government or a business).

Unless you're talking about a scenario in which ALL of our money is forcibly taxed, which I doubt.

[Michael Z]

I understand that you guys prefer country A.  That's cool.  You feel the need to have elected officials protect you from the evils of business.  That's a totally reasonable way to think about things.  I don't agree with it, but I understand it.  Just don't tell me I'm wrong because I picked the country that forces you do less against your will.  I call that being more free, but I can certainly understand how one could see otherwise.

There's no need to get defensive, not to mention cocky, condescending and sarcastic, just because someone's disagreeing with you. No-one's telling you you're "wrong", either; I simply said I didn't understand your viewpoint. There's no right or wrong in this sort of debate, because at the end we are talking about personal philosophies of what actually constitutes "freedom"; clearly, ours differ. That's cool. I'm not forcing you to accept my definition of it (and I certainly don't think I have in the course of this debate), but I would expect you to do likewise instead of getting all sarcastic about it -- surely the free exchange of ideas is also a basic component of liberty, or do you only ever accept economic freedoms?