Yet Another Misunderstanding of "Freedom of Speech"
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  Yet Another Misunderstanding of "Freedom of Speech"
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« on: December 06, 2007, 11:52:36 AM »

OK - these cases are beginning to get stupid - and this one just made me so angry, I'll be writing a blog post.  Yes, she has the RIGHT to say what she said, but she also has the responsibility to uphold hte public image of the school.  This is exactly the same as Don Imus and the "Taser This:  Bush!" editor-in-chief.

Don Imus had the RIGHT to say what he said, but CBS had the obligation to fire him because of 1) their public image and 2) the fact that their advertisers were pulling out.

The Editor-in-chief: he had the RIGHT to publish the " Bush" letter to the editor, but at the point that advertisers started pulling out, his lack of judgment was seen and  he was justly fired.

The same goes here - she had hte right to discuss the t-shirts, but when it causes people to look at the school in a worse manner, the school leadership has the responsibility of upholding the school's image and firing (or urging to step down, as in this case) leaders who show poor judgment.


In First Round, Judge Rules Against Arabic School’s Ex-Principal

Published: December 6, 2007
A judge ruled yesterday against the claim of the founding principal of New York City’s first Arabic-themed school that her right to free speech was violated when she was forced out during a furor over comments she made in a newspaper interview.

In a preliminary finding in the case, Judge Sidney H. Stein of Federal District Court in Manhattan ruled against Debbie Almontaser, who had been principal of the Khalil Gibran International Academy in Brooklyn.

Ms. Almontaser sued Schools Chancellor Joel I. Klein and Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, saying they violated her First Amendment rights by pressuring her to step down after discussing the history of the word “intifada” during an August interview. She had been criticized for not condemning the use of the word on a T-shirt.

The judge said that Ms. Almontaser had participated in the interview as school principal, and that since her employer was responsible for supervising messages to the public, her speech was not protected.

Ms. Almontaser said that the intent of her words about intifada had been distorted. The judge, though, noted that she had been instructed by the schools’ public relations staff not to discuss the T-shirts.

The New York Civil Liberties Union criticized the judge’s ruling. “This is just another example of how recent Supreme Court rulings are undermining constitutional rights in general and First Amendment rights in particular,” said Christopher Dunn, associate legal director of the New York Civil Liberties Union.

The judge also refused Ms. Almontaser’s request that he stop the city from looking for a new principal.

The ruling did not end the case, however. The lawsuit proceeds to a trial based on more evidence, rather than the two-day hearing on which the judge based his preliminary ruling.

The school is the first in the city to teach Arab culture and language.
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snowguy716
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« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2007, 02:27:47 PM »

I understand free speech to mean that you can say what you want to say without legal repercussions. 
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MODU
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« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2007, 02:35:26 PM »

I understand free speech to mean that you can say what you want to say without legal repercussions. 

Then that would be incorrect.
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« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2007, 02:49:15 PM »

I understand free speech to mean that you can say what you want to say without legal repercussions. 

Then that would be incorrect.

Let me clarify:

You cannot be charged with a crime for publicly announcing an opinion you might have.

If you are making threats or committing slander, it is a different situation.

You have the freedom to think whatever you want about someone else, and you even have the right to express that opinion.. but if that leads to actions that harm another person/entity, then it is no longer protected by free speech.
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2007, 02:52:24 PM »

I understand free speech to mean that you can say what you want to say without legal repercussions. 

Then that would be incorrect.

Let me clarify:

You cannot be charged with a crime for publicly announcing an opinion you might have.

If you are making threats or committing slander, it is a different situation.

You have the freedom to think whatever you want about someone else, and you even have the right to express that opinion.. but if that leads to actions that harm another person/entity, then it is no longer protected by free speech.

And this harmed the entity of the school.
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snowguy716
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« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2007, 03:59:25 PM »

I agree with the decision here.

She was speaking on behalf of the school as the principal.

If she was merely expressing her personal research/opinion, she should have clearly stated that when she said it.  It is not hard to say in an interview "my personal view is that... ... ..."

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DownWithTheLeft
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2007, 08:26:41 AM »

I hope she wins her lawsuit as well as Rutgers loses every game they play and Vivian String is the one who winds up fired.
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2007, 11:54:07 AM »

I hope she wins her lawsuit as well as Rutgers loses every game they play and Vivian String is the one who winds up fired.

Why should she win her lawsuit?  She stepped down for making the school look bad.  This isn't a freedom of speech issue.  This is a more extreme version, but should the following scenario get me fired:  In a press conference, I call my boss a moron.
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opebo
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2007, 12:21:43 PM »

Inks brings up some important facts about 'freedom of speech' in a capitalist society.  As with so many other things, there is a theoretical legal right for anyone to speak, but in practice only the owners may speak, as they own platforms from which one may be heard.  Of course the only exceptions are when workers say precisely what owners which to disseminate, and are thus 'heard' - for example those you see on television.
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DownWithTheLeft
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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2007, 07:53:59 PM »

I hope she wins her lawsuit as well as Rutgers loses every game they play and Vivian String is the one who winds up fired.

Why should she win her lawsuit?  She stepped down for making the school look bad.  This isn't a freedom of speech issue.  This is a more extreme version, but should the following scenario get me fired:  In a press conference, I call my boss a moron.
That should not get you fired, sorry Inks but you are bordering on Nazism here.  Speaking out against your company gets you fired?  Sounds like a great way to create a lot of backdoor deals and scandals. 
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Gabu
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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2007, 08:16:13 PM »

That should not get you fired, sorry Inks but you are bordering on Nazism here.  Speaking out against your company gets you fired?  Sounds like a great way to create a lot of backdoor deals and scandals. 

If you do something that causes your company to lose money, I think you would agree that the company ought to have every right to fire you if you're an employee... which is exactly what making your company look bad would likely do.
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Verily
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2007, 08:24:01 PM »

That should not get you fired, sorry Inks but you are bordering on Nazism here.  Speaking out against your company gets you fired?  Sounds like a great way to create a lot of backdoor deals and scandals. 

If you do something that causes your company to lose money, I think you would agree that the company ought to have every right to fire you if you're an employee... which is exactly what making your company look bad would likely do.

Just curious, what about whistleblowing? What about revealing your company's deception, as in the case of Enron? Surely the revelations hurt Enron and caused its collapse. Should they have been able to fire whoever made them? If so, wouldn't that discourage people from coming forward about what they think is corporate corruption?
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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2007, 08:33:12 PM »

That should not get you fired, sorry Inks but you are bordering on Nazism here.  Speaking out against your company gets you fired?  Sounds like a great way to create a lot of backdoor deals and scandals. 

If you do something that causes your company to lose money, I think you would agree that the company ought to have every right to fire you if you're an employee... which is exactly what making your company look bad would likely do.

Just curious, what about whistleblowing? What about revealing your company's deception, as in the case of Enron? Surely the revelations hurt Enron and caused its collapse. Should they have been able to fire whoever made them? If so, wouldn't that discourage people from coming forward about what they think is corporate corruption?

Whistle blowing is different because you are exposing an unethical or illegal practice of the company and the company's retribution for that might be revengeful.  In such a case, the employee should be protected until the allegations can be properly investigated.

If you are slandering or trash talking the company on their time, don't be surprised if they fire you.  Of course there are situations where something said can be taken the wrong way, and if the situation is iffy, then the courts should decide.

DWTL:  Don't you think you're a little inconsistent in that you would protect an employee for trash talking the company they work for, but have no qualms about company's reserving the right to fire said employee for any other reason, such as reduced profits as the result of an economic slow down?
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Gabu
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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2007, 08:36:03 PM »

That should not get you fired, sorry Inks but you are bordering on Nazism here.  Speaking out against your company gets you fired?  Sounds like a great way to create a lot of backdoor deals and scandals. 

If you do something that causes your company to lose money, I think you would agree that the company ought to have every right to fire you if you're an employee... which is exactly what making your company look bad would likely do.

Just curious, what about whistleblowing? What about revealing your company's deception, as in the case of Enron? Surely the revelations hurt Enron and caused its collapse. Should they have been able to fire whoever made them? If so, wouldn't that discourage people from coming forward about what they think is corporate corruption?

I meant losing money doing something legal.  Obviously if what you do makes your company lose illegally gained money, that's different.
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2007, 10:31:45 PM »
« Edited: December 09, 2007, 10:33:24 PM by Fmr. Chairman, Fmr. Governor, & Queen Mum Inks.LWC »

I hope she wins her lawsuit as well as Rutgers loses every game they play and Vivian String is the one who winds up fired.

Why should she win her lawsuit?  She stepped down for making the school look bad.  This isn't a freedom of speech issue.  This is a more extreme version, but should the following scenario get me fired:  In a press conference, I call my boss a moron.
That should not get you fired, sorry Inks but you are bordering on Nazism here.  Speaking out against your company gets you fired?  Sounds like a great way to create a lot of backdoor deals and scandals. 

NAZISM!  So you're  telling me that if A.G. Mukasey today got up and said, "President Bush is the stupidest leader we have ever had.  I think President Bush should go back to first grade and learn how to speak.  While we're at it, send Tom Tancredo back too.  President Bush is so f***ing stupid!  But Laura Bush is some f***ing hot babe!  WHOA i'd tap that *ss!  Have you seen the mother f***ing titties on that little b*tch?" then President Bush would have no right to pressure him to resign.  Come on Down - you're being ridiculous here!

EDIT: when did the f word as in f***ing sensor into just "ing"?
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« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2007, 11:30:54 PM »


You're good at that.. you want a job with Drew Carey?
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DownWithTheLeft
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« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2007, 07:05:01 PM »

I hope she wins her lawsuit as well as Rutgers loses every game they play and Vivian String is the one who winds up fired.

Why should she win her lawsuit?  She stepped down for making the school look bad.  This isn't a freedom of speech issue.  This is a more extreme version, but should the following scenario get me fired:  In a press conference, I call my boss a moron.
That should not get you fired, sorry Inks but you are bordering on Nazism here.  Speaking out against your company gets you fired?  Sounds like a great way to create a lot of backdoor deals and scandals. 

NAZISM!  So you're  telling me that if A.G. Mukasey today got up and said, "President Bush is the stupidest leader we have ever had.  I think President Bush should go back to first grade and learn how to speak.  While we're at it, send Tom Tancredo back too.  President Bush is so f***ing stupid!  But Laura Bush is some f***ing hot babe!  WHOA i'd tap that *ss!  Have you seen the mother f***ing titties on that little b*tch?" then President Bush would have no right to pressure him to resign.  Come on Down - you're being ridiculous here!

EDIT: when did the f word as in f***ing sensor into just "ing"?
Your comments have no parallel.  That was a profanity laced tirade that was probably in violation of some stupid sexual harrasment laws.
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2007, 07:51:17 PM »

I hope she wins her lawsuit as well as Rutgers loses every game they play and Vivian String is the one who winds up fired.

Why should she win her lawsuit?  She stepped down for making the school look bad.  This isn't a freedom of speech issue.  This is a more extreme version, but should the following scenario get me fired:  In a press conference, I call my boss a moron.
That should not get you fired, sorry Inks but you are bordering on Nazism here.  Speaking out against your company gets you fired?  Sounds like a great way to create a lot of backdoor deals and scandals. 

NAZISM!  So you're  telling me that if A.G. Mukasey today got up and said, "President Bush is the stupidest leader we have ever had.  I think President Bush should go back to first grade and learn how to speak.  While we're at it, send Tom Tancredo back too.  President Bush is so f***ing stupid!  But Laura Bush is some f***ing hot babe!  WHOA i'd tap that *ss!  Have you seen the mother f***ing titties on that little b*tch?" then President Bush would have no right to pressure him to resign.  Come on Down - you're being ridiculous here!

EDIT: when did the f word as in f***ing sensor into just "ing"?
Your comments have no parallel.  That was a profanity laced tirade that was probably in violation of some stupid sexual harrasment laws.

OK, fine.  Take out the profanity and the lusting after Mrs. Bush.  You can't embarrass your boss/comany and expect to retain your job though.
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DownWithTheLeft
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« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2007, 08:31:16 PM »

I hope she wins her lawsuit as well as Rutgers loses every game they play and Vivian String is the one who winds up fired.

Why should she win her lawsuit?  She stepped down for making the school look bad.  This isn't a freedom of speech issue.  This is a more extreme version, but should the following scenario get me fired:  In a press conference, I call my boss a moron.
That should not get you fired, sorry Inks but you are bordering on Nazism here.  Speaking out against your company gets you fired?  Sounds like a great way to create a lot of backdoor deals and scandals. 

NAZISM!  So you're  telling me that if A.G. Mukasey today got up and said, "President Bush is the stupidest leader we have ever had.  I think President Bush should go back to first grade and learn how to speak.  While we're at it, send Tom Tancredo back too.  President Bush is so f***ing stupid!  But Laura Bush is some f***ing hot babe!  WHOA i'd tap that *ss!  Have you seen the mother f***ing titties on that little b*tch?" then President Bush would have no right to pressure him to resign.  Come on Down - you're being ridiculous here!

EDIT: when did the f word as in f***ing sensor into just "ing"?
Your comments have no parallel.  That was a profanity laced tirade that was probably in violation of some stupid sexual harrasment laws.

OK, fine.  Take out the profanity and the lusting after Mrs. Bush.  You can't embarrass your boss/comany and expect to retain your job though.
I think principal of a Muslim school and AG of the US are completly different.  Also, did she speak out against the school or just about an absurd thign?
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2007, 10:19:08 PM »

I hope she wins her lawsuit as well as Rutgers loses every game they play and Vivian String is the one who winds up fired.

Why should she win her lawsuit?  She stepped down for making the school look bad.  This isn't a freedom of speech issue.  This is a more extreme version, but should the following scenario get me fired:  In a press conference, I call my boss a moron.
That should not get you fired, sorry Inks but you are bordering on Nazism here.  Speaking out against your company gets you fired?  Sounds like a great way to create a lot of backdoor deals and scandals. 

NAZISM!  So you're  telling me that if A.G. Mukasey today got up and said, "President Bush is the stupidest leader we have ever had.  I think President Bush should go back to first grade and learn how to speak.  While we're at it, send Tom Tancredo back too.  President Bush is so f***ing stupid!  But Laura Bush is some f***ing hot babe!  WHOA i'd tap that *ss!  Have you seen the mother f***ing titties on that little b*tch?" then President Bush would have no right to pressure him to resign.  Come on Down - you're being ridiculous here!

EDIT: when did the f word as in f***ing sensor into just "ing"?
Your comments have no parallel.  That was a profanity laced tirade that was probably in violation of some stupid sexual harrasment laws.

OK, fine.  Take out the profanity and the lusting after Mrs. Bush.  You can't embarrass your boss/comany and expect to retain your job though.
I think principal of a Muslim school and AG of the US are completly different.  Also, did she speak out against the school or just about an absurd thign?

She refused to denounce something that the rest of hte school leadership denounced, and brought it up at a press conference.  She gave her personal opinion at a press conference for the school.  She did not have the best interest of the school in mind.  The same thing applies with Don Imus - I would've fired him too, not because of what he said, but because of the fact that I just lost all my major sponsors and it would now be costing me more money to keep him on the air instead of me making money.
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DownWithTheLeft
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« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2007, 08:40:11 PM »

I hope she wins her lawsuit as well as Rutgers loses every game they play and Vivian String is the one who winds up fired.

Why should she win her lawsuit?  She stepped down for making the school look bad.  This isn't a freedom of speech issue.  This is a more extreme version, but should the following scenario get me fired:  In a press conference, I call my boss a moron.
That should not get you fired, sorry Inks but you are bordering on Nazism here.  Speaking out against your company gets you fired?  Sounds like a great way to create a lot of backdoor deals and scandals. 

NAZISM!  So you're  telling me that if A.G. Mukasey today got up and said, "President Bush is the stupidest leader we have ever had.  I think President Bush should go back to first grade and learn how to speak.  While we're at it, send Tom Tancredo back too.  President Bush is so f***ing stupid!  But Laura Bush is some f***ing hot babe!  WHOA i'd tap that *ss!  Have you seen the mother f***ing titties on that little b*tch?" then President Bush would have no right to pressure him to resign.  Come on Down - you're being ridiculous here!

EDIT: when did the f word as in f***ing sensor into just "ing"?
Your comments have no parallel.  That was a profanity laced tirade that was probably in violation of some stupid sexual harrasment laws.

OK, fine.  Take out the profanity and the lusting after Mrs. Bush.  You can't embarrass your boss/comany and expect to retain your job though.
I think principal of a Muslim school and AG of the US are completly different.  Also, did she speak out against the school or just about an absurd thign?

She refused to denounce something that the rest of hte school leadership denounced, and brought it up at a press conference.  She gave her personal opinion at a press conference for the school.  She did not have the best interest of the school in mind.  The same thing applies with Don Imus - I would've fired him too, not because of what he said, but because of the fact that I just lost all my major sponsors and it would now be costing me more money to keep him on the air instead of me making money.
What's the point of having free speech at all if you don't stand up for it in the tough times?
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« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2007, 08:42:51 PM »

What's the point of having free speech at all if you don't stand up for it in the tough times?

You don't exactly seem to understand what free speech is.

Free speech is the ability to say what you want without the government arresting you for it.

Free speech is not the ability to say what you want without any repercussions from private individuals whatsoever.

It is not a violation of free speech for your girlfriend to leave you after you call her a whore, nor is it a violation of free speech for your company to fire you after you publicly insult it or cause it financial grief due to something you said.
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« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2007, 08:48:28 PM »

What's the point of having free speech at all if you don't stand up for it in the tough times?

You don't exactly seem to understand what free speech is.

Free speech is the ability to say what you want without the government arresting you for it.

Free speech is not the ability to say what you want without any repercussions from private individuals whatsoever.

It is not a violation of free speech for your girlfriend to leave you after you call her a whore, nor is it a violation of free speech for your company to fire you after you publicly insult it or cause it financial grief due to something you said.
While not protecting the 1st amendment, it should be upheld.  I don't care if its law, I'm saying someone should stand up for it.
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« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2007, 09:00:22 PM »

While not protecting the 1st amendment, it should be upheld.  I don't care if its law, I'm saying someone should stand up for it.

Here, let me quote you the relevant part of first amendment:

"Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech."

Congress.  Not private individuals or companies.  The first amendment imposes no restrictions whatsoever on private individuals or companies.  A non-governmental entity cannot, by definition, violate the first amendment.
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2007, 09:06:49 PM »

I hope she wins her lawsuit as well as Rutgers loses every game they play and Vivian String is the one who winds up fired.

Why should she win her lawsuit?  She stepped down for making the school look bad.  This isn't a freedom of speech issue.  This is a more extreme version, but should the following scenario get me fired:  In a press conference, I call my boss a moron.
That should not get you fired, sorry Inks but you are bordering on Nazism here.  Speaking out against your company gets you fired?  Sounds like a great way to create a lot of backdoor deals and scandals. 

NAZISM!  So you're  telling me that if A.G. Mukasey today got up and said, "President Bush is the stupidest leader we have ever had.  I think President Bush should go back to first grade and learn how to speak.  While we're at it, send Tom Tancredo back too.  President Bush is so f***ing stupid!  But Laura Bush is some f***ing hot babe!  WHOA i'd tap that *ss!  Have you seen the mother f***ing titties on that little b*tch?" then President Bush would have no right to pressure him to resign.  Come on Down - you're being ridiculous here!

EDIT: when did the f word as in f***ing sensor into just "ing"?
Your comments have no parallel.  That was a profanity laced tirade that was probably in violation of some stupid sexual harrasment laws.

OK, fine.  Take out the profanity and the lusting after Mrs. Bush.  You can't embarrass your boss/comany and expect to retain your job though.
I think principal of a Muslim school and AG of the US are completly different.  Also, did she speak out against the school or just about an absurd thign?

She refused to denounce something that the rest of hte school leadership denounced, and brought it up at a press conference.  She gave her personal opinion at a press conference for the school.  She did not have the best interest of the school in mind.  The same thing applies with Don Imus - I would've fired him too, not because of what he said, but because of the fact that I just lost all my major sponsors and it would now be costing me more money to keep him on the air instead of me making money.
What's the point of having free speech at all if you don't stand up for it in the tough times?
What's the point of hiring somebody if you can't fire them for making your company look bad?
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