Northern Ireland General Discussion

[YL]

The Alliance Party is in fact really the "left-wing unionist" party you're looking for - it receives few votes from Catholics.

I don't think this is entirely true.  In areas where the Catholic population is low it often appears quite a few of them are voting Alliance.  See Assembly results in Strangford, for example.

I'm also not sure that Alliance is exactly "left wing" -- I've got the impression that some Alliance supporters are quite right wing in an Orange Book liberal sort of way -- and while it might be generally "unionist" with a small u it is not Unionist.  What defines Alliance is opposition to sectarianism.

Note also that there have been a few UUP figures (including their last MP, who left because of their ill starred alliance with the Tories) not exactly on the right.

(I think Al has said enough about South Down.)

[Sibboleth]

'Actually nonsectarian, but not exactly working class orientated' as one satirical work from the early 1980s put it. Increasingly mostly just public sector middle class.

On tuther thing, Two UUP MPs voted with the Callaghan government in the vote of no confidence; Harold McCusker (Armagh) and John Carson (North Belfast). Carson was promptly deselected, while McCusker ended up as a deputy leader. Make of that what thou will, etc.

[Vasall des Midas]

And the bloc vote of NI's one not-entirely-negligible non-Irish population group. Which is Chinese.

[London Man]

Lord Maginnis loses UUP whip over anti-gay comments

[Јas]

Lord Maginnis loses UUP whip over anti-gay comments

On the theme...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/oct/01/northern-ireland-assembly-gay-marriage


The Green Party motion for marriage equality was

That this Assembly believes that all couples, including those of the same sex, should have the right to marry in the eyes of the State and that, while the rights of religious institutions to define, observe and practise marriage within their beliefs should be given legal protection, all married couples, including those of the same sex, should have the same legal entitlement to the protections, responsibilities, rights, obligations and benefits afforded by the legal institution of marriage; calls on the Minister of Finance and Personnel to introduce legislation to guarantee that couples of any sex or gender identity receive equal benefit; and further calls on the First Minister and deputy First Minister to ensure that all legislation adheres to the Government’s commitments to protect equality for all.

The Green, Sinn Féin and the SDLP voted in favour (1 SDLP abstention).

The DUP, voting against, ensured the motion would definitely be be defeated by making it a cross-community vote.

The UUP voted against, with 3 members splitting away to vote in favour of the motion.

Alliance also split, voting 4-1 in favour.

[Јas]

The below obviously came out a few days ago.
Interesting changes to the religious demography, but also for the first time a question about national identity.

Figures reveal just 54,000 more Protestants than Catholics in NI

There are just 54,000 more people from a Protestant background than from a Catholic one in Northern Ireland, latest figures from the North’s 2011 census have shown.

The gap between those in the North who are or were raised as Protestant and Catholic has narrowed to 3 per cent, figures released yesterday disclosed.

There are 864,000 people in Northern Ireland from a Protestant tradition, compared with 810,000 from a Catholic background.

The census showed 48 per cent of Northern Ireland’s 1.8 million population originated from Protestant households while those from Catholic households were 45 per cent. This marks a 1 per cent increase in the Catholic population from 2001 and a reduction of 5 per cent in the Protestant population. It is the first time the Protestant population has gone under 50 per cent.

The Protestant population is older than the Catholic equivalent, the census shows. A separate school census shows a Catholic majority among school-age children.

...

the census also revealed that only one in four of the overall Northern Ireland population sees themselves as exclusively Irish. This contrasts with 40 per cent who view themselves as solely British and 21 per cent who see themselves as Northern Irish only. This is the first time this question of identity was asked in the Northern census.

Almost half (48 per cent) of people usually resident in Northern Ireland included British as a national identity while 29 per cent included Northern Irish and 28 per cent included Irish as identity. Here there would have been some overlapping identities.

One-sixth (17 per cent) of the population either had no religion or no stated religion while 5.6 per cent neither belonged to, nor had been brought up in, a religion. The stated religion of the population was 41 per cent Catholic. This compared with 19 per cent Presbyterian, 14 per cent Church of Ireland, 3 per cent Methodist, and 5.8 per cent other Christian or Christian-related denominations – a total of 41.8 per cent.

...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1212/1224327773537.html

[Јas]

The AIRO has graphed some of this data by district:
http://www.airo.ie/news/census-northern-ireland-interactive-snapshot
 

[politicus]

The below obviously came out a few days ago.
Interesting changes to the religious demography, but also for the first time a question about national identity.

Figures reveal just 54,000 more Protestants than Catholics in NI

There are just 54,000 more people from a Protestant background than from a Catholic one in Northern Ireland, latest figures from the North’s 2011 census have shown.

The gap between those in the North who are or were raised as Protestant and Catholic has narrowed to 3 per cent, figures released yesterday disclosed.

There are 864,000 people in Northern Ireland from a Protestant tradition, compared with 810,000 from a Catholic background.

The census showed 48 per cent of Northern Ireland’s 1.8 million population originated from Protestant households while those from Catholic households were 45 per cent. This marks a 1 per cent increase in the Catholic population from 2001 and a reduction of 5 per cent in the Protestant population. It is the first time the Protestant population has gone under 50 per cent.

The Protestant population is older than the Catholic equivalent, the census shows. A separate school census shows a Catholic majority among school-age children.

...

the census also revealed that only one in four of the overall Northern Ireland population sees themselves as exclusively Irish. This contrasts with 40 per cent who view themselves as solely British and 21 per cent who see themselves as Northern Irish only. This is the first time this question of identity was asked in the Northern census.

Almost half (48 per cent) of people usually resident in Northern Ireland included British as a national identity while 29 per cent included Northern Irish and 28 per cent included Irish as identity. Here there would have been some overlapping identities.

One-sixth (17 per cent) of the population either had no religion or no stated religion while 5.6 per cent neither belonged to, nor had been brought up in, a religion. The stated religion of the population was 41 per cent Catholic. This compared with 19 per cent Presbyterian, 14 per cent Church of Ireland, 3 per cent Methodist, and 5.8 per cent other Christian or Christian-related denominations – a total of 41.8 per cent.

...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1212/1224327773537.html

Very interesting, but the low level of Irish identity isnt good news for the Republicans. Is it decreasing or increasing with age?
Regarding the distribution of the 6,5% that hasn't been brought up in either tradition. With 5,59% growing up without a religion I assume a lot come from mixed Catholic/Protestant families?
The 0,92% non-Christian are presumably mostly Chinese.
The Polish and other Eastern European Catholics must be counted in the Catholic bracket in this census, so perhaps the Irish Catholic share is a bit lower than the 45,14%. Maybe 43-43,5%?
Its a shame they don't have an "Irish Catholic" category.

If they do a Border Poll, do you think there would be a pro-Irish majority in Derry, Omagh and Newry & Mourne? The numbers look solid.

[Јas]

Very interesting, but the low level of Irish identity isnt good news for the Republicans. Is it decreasing or increasing with age?

Not as of yet.
If you want to look through the first batch of released results, they're here.

The 0,92% non-Christian are presumably mostly Chinese.

0.35% are ethnically Chinese.
0.34% are ethnically Indian.

The Polish and other Eastern European Catholics must be counted in the Catholic bracket in this census, so perhaps the Irish Catholic share is a bit lower than the 45,14%. Maybe 43-43,5%?
Its a shame they don't have an "Irish Catholic" category.

1.97% are from the EU post-04 accession countries.
Judging by the language data, the majority of these are probably Polish and Lithuanian.

If they do a Border Poll, do you think there would be a pro-Irish majority in Derry, Omagh and Newry & Mourne? The numbers look solid.

Depends on context but Derry and Newry, yes I think so.
Omagh and Magherafelt - pretty marginal either way.

[Χahar]

Map:

[London Man]

Perhaps it's because I'm not from there, but seriously people, it's just a flag.

[Senator MaxQue]

Indeed. I was ashamed of Quebec during that long debate on the presence of the Canada flag in the Assembly, but, at least, there was no violence.

Well, I suppose it's a continuation of The Troubles.

[Јas]

Perhaps it's because I'm not from there, but seriously people, it's just a flag.

Maybe because it's not really about the flag.

[Sibboleth]

Perhaps it's because I'm not from there, but seriously people, it's just a flag.

Maybe because it's not really about the flag.

Or, rather, it is about the flag, but the flag is not actually a flag.

[So the Heroes Fall]

Something I came across recently is that for whatever reason, there are more Mormons in Northern Ireland than in the Republic. I wonder what party they tend to vote for.

[DC Al Fine]

Something I came across recently is that for whatever reason, there are more Mormons in Northern Ireland than in the Republic. I wonder what party they tend to vote for.

UUP maybe?

Mormons tend to do well, so they probably don't lean left. They're way too socially conservative for the Alliance, and I'm sure Ian Paisley doesn't like them.

[Ghyl Tarvoke]

Something I came across recently is that for whatever reason, there are more Mormons in Northern Ireland than in the Republic. I wonder what party they tend to vote for.

I imagine DUP given that I imagine this is connected with the rise of new forms of evangelical Protestantism in NI (of course, evangelicalism itself has a long history in the North as do denominational splits. Just look at Big Iain) and those are DUP voters (if they vote). That would also explain why there are more Mormons in NI than here, which is hardly surprising..

[ObserverIE]

Something I came across recently is that for whatever reason, there are more Mormons in Northern Ireland than in the Republic. I wonder what party they tend to vote for.

I imagine DUP given that I imagine this is connected with the rise of new forms of evangelical Protestantism in NI (of course, evangelicalism itself has a long history in the North as do denominational splits. Just look at Big Iain) and those are DUP voters (if they vote). That would also explain why there are more Mormons in NI than here, which is hardly surprising..

Mormons are not quite evangelical Protestants, though, and I'm not sure that the strident wing of the DUP, who would not consider Mormons to be Christian never mind Protestant, would have much appeal for them. I suspect sizeable numbers would go with UUP or Alliance (on the "none of the above" principle) or simply not vote.

[Ghyl Tarvoke]

Something I came across recently is that for whatever reason, there are more Mormons in Northern Ireland than in the Republic. I wonder what party they tend to vote for.

I imagine DUP given that I imagine this is connected with the rise of new forms of evangelical Protestantism in NI (of course, evangelicalism itself has a long history in the North as do denominational splits. Just look at Big Iain) and those are DUP voters (if they vote). That would also explain why there are more Mormons in NI than here, which is hardly surprising..

Mormons are not quite evangelical Protestants, though, and I'm not sure that the strident wing of the DUP, who would not consider Mormons to be Christian never mind Protestant, would have much appeal for them. I suspect sizeable numbers would go with UUP or Alliance (on the "none of the above" principle) or simply not vote.

Yes, I know, but they come from the same theological gene pool as the modern evangelical movement and certainly share more background than they do with Catholics. And I don't recall the DUP ever making comments against the Mormons (although given that I tend to ignore everything the DUP says, I can't be sure of that). Of course, if we knew where these Mormons lived, I would have a better idea.

However, the fact that there are more Mormons in NI than ROI (with c40% of the population) is revealing enough in itself.

[So the Heroes Fall]

The LDS Church counts about 2800 members in the Republic and 5300 members in the North.

[Јas]

Perhaps it's because I'm not from there, but seriously people, it's just a flag.

Maybe because it's not really about the flag.

Or, rather, it is about the flag, but the flag is not actually a flag.

Indeed so.