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they don't love you like i love you
BRTD
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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2009, 12:11:34 PM »

Why the hell are those guys not in jail and how can you sue an illegal organization?
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2009, 06:30:40 AM »

Which isn't really a surprise.
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afleitch
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« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2009, 06:34:31 AM »


And further to that can I simply say 'beggars can't be choosers' Tongue The UUP are not in the position to be able to afford to do anything different.
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afleitch
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« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2009, 06:54:29 AM »


And further to that can I simply say 'beggars can't be choosers' Tongue The UUP are not in the position to be able to afford to do anything different.

What do the UUP get out of the deal?

They get to live Grin
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KuntaKinte
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« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2009, 09:01:24 AM »


Do you guys think the UUP will hold their seat in the next UK elections?
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2010, 10:48:13 AM »

I have a quick question about the NI parties, which I don't particularly feel like rooting around Wikipedia for.

I know where the five main parties (DUP, UUP, SDLP, SF and the Alliance) stand on unionism and nationalism.  But where, approximately do they stand on everything else?  Social issues, economics, foreign affairs, etc.?
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KuntaKinte
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« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2010, 11:01:38 AM »

I have a quick question about the NI parties, which I don't particularly feel like rooting around Wikipedia for.

I know where the five main parties (DUP, UUP, SDLP, SF and the Alliance) stand on unionism and nationalism.  But where, approximately do they stand on everything else?  Social issues, economics, foreign affairs, etc.?

I second that question. I just have a very vague idea of that my self:

DUP: right-wing populism, evangelical fundamentalism

UUP: mainstream conservatism (Tories)

SDLP: mainstream social democracy (Labour), although her voter base is less working class than those of SF

SF: left-wing nationalism, socialism, anti-imperialism

Alliance: mainstream liberalism

What I'm particularly interested about is:

1. Does Sinn Fein take a "traditional catholic" or a "leftist" stand on social issues, f.e. gay rights?
2. Does the DUP, who is to a large extend supported by protestant working class, take, at least to a degree, a social democratic stand on economic issues?
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« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2010, 02:51:12 PM »

There isn't much the DUP and BNP don't agree on. Well besides that the BNP tends to be secular-based and the DUP doesn't hate blacks (well at least not Protestant blacks in the UK. They were big fans of apartheid South Africa and Ian Smith's Rhodesia.)

Of course Sinn Fein are just as fascist (hold up people who collaborated with the Nazis as heroes)
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afleitch
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« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2010, 02:59:10 PM »


1. Does Sinn Fein take a "traditional catholic" or a "leftist" stand on social issues, f.e. gay rights?


It does. All the Nationalist parties do.

NI polItics has always been a guddle to me. Voting preference would depend on where I was. So UUP over DUP in a unionist battle, SDLP over Sinn Fein in a nationalist but Sinn Fein over DUP if they are slugging it out. At Stormont, I'd plump for the Alliance where I could and again vote to freeze out the DUP.
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Verily
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« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2010, 03:27:20 PM »

2. Does the DUP, who is to a large extend supported by protestant working class, take, at least to a degree, a social democratic stand on economic issues?

The DUP is opportunist on economics and rarely has to make such decisions (or win/lose votes on them). The primary left-wing unionist party is the Progressive Unionist Party.
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afleitch
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« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2010, 03:33:11 PM »

2. Does the DUP, who is to a large extend supported by protestant working class, take, at least to a degree, a social democratic stand on economic issues?

The DUP is opportunist on economics and rarely has to make such decisions (or win/lose votes on them). The primary left-wing unionist party is the Progressive Unionist Party.

I've always found 'left wing unionist' a bit of an oxymoron given that any party that seeks to take inspiration from left wing movements/labour/socialism would be so tribal when it comes to religion. I say a bit because then I remember the Trade Union movement and Catholics on my own turf...
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hcallega
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« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2010, 03:47:44 PM »

Basically the SDLP is a more moderate Sinn Fein, sort of like New Labour vs. Old Labour. In the past there has been a dispute within the party as to whether it should be a social democratic party or a nonviolent nationalist party. The party's founder actually left as he thought it had become more focused on the nationalism than on social democracy.

Sinn Fein is hard to nail down, as in some regards they appear socialist yet their platform is not very radical at all (and this is coming from an American!). They take a page from Fianna Fail and are quick to embrace traditional Irish values.

The two Unionist party's are pretty similar, but the DUP is more radical. Finally, the Alliance is your standard third-way/classical liberal party.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2010, 04:38:11 PM »

DUP: officially right-wing on constitutional issues (obviously) and what Americans call 'social issues' (from a Protestant fundamentalist standpoint of course - though though don't confuse the religious motivations of their leadership with the religious views of their voters... outside rural Antrim) and left-wing on what Americans call 'economic' issues. In practice, however, they don't have much of a position on the latter and just say whatever will win them votes and influence*, their official 'left-wing' stance is the result of the influence of Desmond Boal on the early DUP - since he left politics it hasn't mattered much. In some respects the party the DUP is most like is actually, and lol, Fianna Fail...

SF: officially a revolutionary-Marxist-cum-Irish-republican-nationalist party. In practice they offer a sort of communalist social democracy mixed with an increasingly watered-down republicanism and blatant urban machine politics notably largely for its effectiveness; they aren't nearly as radical as a lot of people think.

SDLP: officially a social democratic party (and they are an SI member party - for now), but in practice a mild nationalist party with some social democrats (well... Eddie McGrady and much of the Party's youth wing) still but with rather a lot of Catholic establishment types of the sort that would once have voted for the old Nationalist Party; essentially its a centrist party in all respects. They have been largely eliminated in Catholic urban ghettos like the Falls and Bogside and are increasingly a party of the Catholic middle class (such as it is) - one (not entirely fair) skit on their name is the Schoolteachers Doctors and Lawyers Party. Under Gerry Fitt they were a proper social democratic party (albeit one with a communal base), but after he lost control (and then left) things rapidly moved towards their present direction.

UUP: the Unionist Party was an integral part of the Conservative Party until 1972, the party had close links to the Monday Club back in the day and a certain former party leader is now a Tory peer. That tells you almost all you need to know, though there have always been exceptions - liberal and leftish Unionists unable to commit to the Alliance and with nowhere else to go. This includes their sole remaining MP.

Alliance: officially a nonsectarian, noncommunal liberal party, in practice a party of non-bigoted Protestant public sector workers. There have been ideological shifts within the Alliance over the decades, but they're pretty boring in comparision.

The PUP was mentioned upthread - they only matter in Belfast Loyalist ghettos. They don't run anywhere else and no one would vote for them if they did. They actually seem to have inherited a decent share of the old NILP vote (hilarious given that PUP is to UVF as SF is to (P)IRA) and in terms of rhetoric are the most leftwing party in Northern Ireland with any seats. There ideology is a little weird, of course, but are now the Unionist party most committed to the peace process and the healing of society - the late David Ervine was at times the sole Unionist vote in favour of things like using Irish at Stormont and so on.

*This includes being very close to local businessmen. Thus recent scandals.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2010, 04:40:53 PM »
« Edited: January 11, 2010, 04:52:07 PM by Comrade Sibboleth »

Of course, now there's TUV. I don't know if they have a stance on anything other than "No co-operation with Taigs" yet.

There isn't much the DUP and BNP don't agree on. Well besides that the BNP tends to be secular-based and the DUP doesn't hate blacks (well at least not Protestant blacks in the UK. They were big fans of apartheid South Africa and Ian Smith's Rhodesia.)

Of course Sinn Fein are just as fascist (hold up people who collaborated with the Nazis as heroes)

The non-fringe party in Northern Ireland that was closest to being genuinely fascist was Vanguard. Which was also the party that most of the present leading lights in the UUP started out in, hilariously enough.

Of course the party with actual links (of sorts) to the world of the far-right was the UDP (that is the former political wing of the UDA). Random 'fun' - have a look at how late into the troubles the UDA was banned.
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Verily
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« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2010, 10:39:23 PM »

UUP: the Unionist Party was an integral part of the Conservative Party until 1972, the party had close links to the Monday Club back in the day and a certain former party leader is now a Tory peer. That tells you almost all you need to know, though there have always been exceptions - liberal and leftish Unionists unable to commit to the Alliance and with nowhere else to go. This includes their sole remaining MP.

Sylvia Hermon left the UUP over its effective re-merge with the Conservatives, didn't she? (or maybe she lost reselection, don't recall.) I think she's running for re-election as an independent with Alliance backing.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2010, 07:36:24 AM »

I'm quite sure that it's "Ulster Conservative Unionist New Truth".
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2010, 11:44:42 AM »

Thanks for all the responses to my question.

So if I understand things correctly, the left and right ends of the traditional political spectrum correspond very roughly with the nationalists and unionists, respectively.  Is that a fair statement?
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2010, 05:16:54 AM »

That's got to be a little sucky for right-wing nationalist and left-wing unionist voters, surely?
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2010, 04:30:11 PM »
« Edited: January 13, 2010, 04:32:31 PM by Benn in 2010 »

Iris Robinson has resigned as an MP.

(Not sure whether to do a by-election thread, as there might not be one)
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2010, 07:15:38 PM »

There'll only be a by-election if the DUP wants one...
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2010, 03:12:43 PM »

And now, some news to remind everyone that the Robinsons aren't the only Northern Ireland political family under a cloud at the moment... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8461792.stm
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2010, 08:13:40 PM »

More rape-related trouble for Sinn Fein:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8471383.stm
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2010, 06:21:52 AM »

No TUV invited?

Clever of them. Gotta think of mainland reactions too. Grin
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2010, 07:19:38 AM »

And now, some news on the political crisis...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8476282.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8476569.stm
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2010, 06:40:57 PM »

Seems that the SDLP are very, very angry about the Tories hosting talks between the Unionist parties.
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