Northern Ireland General Discussion

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Presumably this kills off any hope he might have had of following on from his dad as leader?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The DUP aren't just a bunch of fundamentalists... in any case, I don't see how hooking up with the Tories (again) will help the UUP at all. Maybe people should remember quite how well (or rather "badly") the Tories did when they stood in NI in '92.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Personally it would be nice for the mainland parties to be succesful there.

Maybe, but that's just a pipedream really (and Nationalists wouldn't vote for the British parties). Would would be nice would be for a rebirth of the NILP. Also a pipedream, I guess

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The DUP's core electorate (both in urban and rural areas) is largely working class. And the same for Sinn Fein, obviously (and the party that Sinn Fein supporters in London vote for is not exactly a secret...).

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Have you heard one of the more imaginative sendups of the SDLP's acronym? Schoolteachers, Doctor's and Lawyers Party. It's only a slight exaggeration to say that outside Derry (where it still has a working class vote) it's become (despite the name) the party of middle class Catholics and little else. The party is now close to death in working class districts in Belfast where it was once very strong. Increasingly the SDLP looks more FF-FG than anything found on the mainland (still has a "red" wing though).

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Some mistake surely;

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7768650.stm

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Which isn't really a surprise.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

DUP: officially right-wing on constitutional issues (obviously) and what Americans call 'social issues' (from a Protestant fundamentalist standpoint of course - though though don't confuse the religious motivations of their leadership with the religious views of their voters... outside rural Antrim) and left-wing on what Americans call 'economic' issues. In practice, however, they don't have much of a position on the latter and just say whatever will win them votes and influence*, their official 'left-wing' stance is the result of the influence of Desmond Boal on the early DUP - since he left politics it hasn't mattered much. In some respects the party the DUP is most like is actually, and lol, Fianna Fail...

SF: officially a revolutionary-Marxist-cum-Irish-republican-nationalist party. In practice they offer a sort of communalist social democracy mixed with an increasingly watered-down republicanism and blatant urban machine politics notably largely for its effectiveness; they aren't nearly as radical as a lot of people think.

SDLP: officially a social democratic party (and they are an SI member party - for now), but in practice a mild nationalist party with some social democrats (well... Eddie McGrady and much of the Party's youth wing) still but with rather a lot of Catholic establishment types of the sort that would once have voted for the old Nationalist Party; essentially its a centrist party in all respects. They have been largely eliminated in Catholic urban ghettos like the Falls and Bogside and are increasingly a party of the Catholic middle class (such as it is) - one (not entirely fair) skit on their name is the Schoolteachers Doctors and Lawyers Party. Under Gerry Fitt they were a proper social democratic party (albeit one with a communal base), but after he lost control (and then left) things rapidly moved towards their present direction.

UUP: the Unionist Party was an integral part of the Conservative Party until 1972, the party had close links to the Monday Club back in the day and a certain former party leader is now a Tory peer. That tells you almost all you need to know, though there have always been exceptions - liberal and leftish Unionists unable to commit to the Alliance and with nowhere else to go. This includes their sole remaining MP.

Alliance: officially a nonsectarian, noncommunal liberal party, in practice a party of non-bigoted Protestant public sector workers. There have been ideological shifts within the Alliance over the decades, but they're pretty boring in comparision.

The PUP was mentioned upthread - they only matter in Belfast Loyalist ghettos. They don't run anywhere else and no one would vote for them if they did. They actually seem to have inherited a decent share of the old NILP vote (hilarious given that PUP is to UVF as SF is to (P)IRA) and in terms of rhetoric are the most leftwing party in Northern Ireland with any seats. There ideology is a little weird, of course, but are now the Unionist party most committed to the peace process and the healing of society - the late David Ervine was at times the sole Unionist vote in favour of things like using Irish at Stormont and so on.

*This includes being very close to local businessmen. Thus recent scandals.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Of course, now there's TUV. I don't know if they have a stance on anything other than "No co-operation with Taigs" yet.

There isn't much the DUP and BNP don't agree on. Well besides that the BNP tends to be secular-based and the DUP doesn't hate blacks (well at least not Protestant blacks in the UK. They were big fans of apartheid South Africa and Ian Smith's Rhodesia.)

Of course Sinn Fein are just as fascist (hold up people who collaborated with the Nazis as heroes)

The non-fringe party in Northern Ireland that was closest to being genuinely fascist was Vanguard. Which was also the party that most of the present leading lights in the UUP started out in, hilariously enough.

Of course the party with actual links (of sorts) to the world of the far-right was the UDP (that is the former political wing of the UDA). Random 'fun' - have a look at how late into the troubles the UDA was banned.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I'm quite sure that it's "Ulster Conservative Unionist New Truth".

[Filuwaúrdjan]

There'll only be a by-election if the DUP wants one...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

And now, some news to remind everyone that the Robinsons aren't the only Northern Ireland political family under a cloud at the moment... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8461792.stm

[Filuwaúrdjan]

More rape-related trouble for Sinn Fein:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8471383.stm

[Filuwaúrdjan]

And now, some news on the political crisis...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8476282.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8476569.stm

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Seems that the SDLP are very, very angry about the Tories hosting talks between the Unionist parties.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I would agree that they don't any right to be angry at the Tories having talks with the UUP... but I think that (at the very least) discomfort at the Tories having talks with the two main Unionist parties is entirely understandable. I suspect that some of the anger is for show though - which is in itself a good sign that the situation is now very serious.

A DUP-UUP alliance would be (from an SDLP point of view) a return to the UUUC in any case...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

It has emerged that the Orange Order held talks between the DUP and UUP in December. So now it's the Tories turn to be pissed off: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8487549.stm

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Looks like a deal was essentially agreed on Saturday, but Robinson couldn't sell it to the DUP Assembly members (suggestions that Nigel Dodds and Gregory Campbell were particularly lukewarm).

Shocking.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

In Northern Ireland "six weeks" apparently means something different to this side of the sea.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

And we have a deal. Apparently.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Also, the INLA have decommissioned their arsenal.

- Irish Times

Blast from the Past.

Worst pun of the day

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Always liked McGrady, and not just because he beat Enoch Powell.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I think the official position is that they will all run candidates against each other. But, haha, this is Northern Ireland, so... still, I think we're more likely to see co-operation at the next Stormont elections (for seriously ugly sectarian reasons). I think its quite likely that TUV doesn't run everywhere; though they'll have a serious crack at North Antrim, of course.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I would prefer that they didn't (because I quite like Martin McGuinness and would like him to be First Minister), but the logical thing for the remains of the UUP to do is to fold into the DUP. A UUP without any seats at Westminster is utterly pointless.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

LOL

[Filuwaúrdjan]

So, yeah. What's left of the PUP has decided to commit suicide. Probably. In practice.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Or with Purvis leaving over this issue. Either way...