Chavez general discussion
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Question: Do you think Chavez will become an important people in the future of International politics?
#1
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#2
No
 
#3
Don't know
 
#4
Don't care
 
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Author Topic: Chavez general discussion  (Read 2457 times)
Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]
tsionebreicruoc
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« on: December 08, 2007, 12:04:40 PM »

I open this topic on Chavez cause I think this man could play an important role in the future of the International politics.

My first questions are to peoples who have a good knowledge of what's happening in Latin America.

It seems that Chavez is creating a network with the countries of this continent.

Currently, the good friends of Venezuela seem to be Ecuador, Bolivia (at least one part of this country, the poorest but the one who lead the country) and Nicaragua.

What's about Peru? Is there a Chavist stream in this country? If yes, is it big?   

What's about Argentina? How is Mrs Kirschner with Chavez?

What's about Mexico? Do the tensions concerning the price of corn, and so of the tortillas, lead a lot of people in Chavez arms for example?

Thancks for all the ones who can give some of these informations and welcome to all the ones who want to speak about Chavez in general.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2007, 12:18:53 PM »

I suspect Chavez, once he leaves office (and I'm glad he will), will become some version of Che Guevara, but without the deadness.
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© tweed
Miamiu1027
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2007, 05:23:56 PM »

I suspect Chavez, once he leaves office (and I'm glad he will), will become some version of Che Guevara, but without the deadness.

that's one of the poorest analogies I've ever heard.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2007, 05:41:57 PM »

To answer the question, no. He's obviously making himself less and less relevant by the day. Apart from the few Chavez-clones, such as Evo Morales, most sensible left-wing leaders such as Kirchner are going to distance themselves from Chavez and certainly not be his allies. Unless he takes some heed from the referendum defeat and starts to change (which I doubt) he will not be in the history books (I think and hope!)
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Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]
tsionebreicruoc
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2007, 07:57:19 PM »

I suspect Chavez, once he leaves office (and I'm glad he will), will become some version of Che Guevara, but without the deadness.

To speak about an analogy, I think more that he could play the role of some sort of Mussolini. I mean a spectacular dictator not really powerful on the International scene, but enough to make some troubles.

Will this analogy of Mussolini find its analogy of Hitler? Could it be Putin? Ahmadinejad? Else? When I speak about an analogy of Hitler, I don't speak about a new holocaust, I speak about a strong bellicose dictator who can put the mess in the world. It's not sure this time there would be only one big, but several serious.

Anyway, Chavez can stay at the power until 2013, lot of things can happen by then and his recent fail could encourage him to be more and more authoritarian.
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Padfoot
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2007, 12:22:59 AM »

I think a lot of his influence in the future will depend on the outcome of the US Presidential election.  Right now he's riding a tide of international Bush hatred, but Bush will be gone in a year.  If the new US president is more widely accepted on the international scale  then I think Chavez's influence will diminish significantly.  However, if the new US president is someone he can continue to pick on as an internationally disliked figure then I could see him continuing to be an annoyance.  Regardless of who the president is though, Venezuela is a major oil exporter and as long as the US continues to rely heavily on imported oil and Chavez will continue to be a pain in our ass.
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Michael Z
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2007, 07:11:55 AM »

I think he'll go down in history as a bit of a joke, especially if he carries on like this...
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Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]
tsionebreicruoc
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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2007, 09:37:28 AM »
« Edited: December 09, 2007, 09:50:43 AM by tsionebreicruoc »

I think a lot of his influence in the future will depend on the outcome of the US Presidential election.  Right now he's riding a tide of international Bush hatred, but Bush will be gone in a year.  If the new US president is more widely accepted on the international scale  then I think Chavez's influence will diminish significantly.  However, if the new US president is someone he can continue to pick on as an internationally disliked figure then I could see him continuing to be an annoyance.  Regardless of who the president is though, Venezuela is a major oil exporter and as long as the US continues to rely heavily on imported oil and Chavez will continue to be a pain in our ass.

Concerning the new US president, I think so. I also think that there is still one year for G.W. Bush to begin a world mess by striking on Iran, making rising more than ever the importance of Chavez on the International scene.

If there is a new US president less disliked in the world (it could be as much Clinton as Giuliani, or else, it won't be very hard to be more disliked than G.W. Bush), if the new US president who is less a sort of "cow-boy of the western freedom", I think there is an other one who could take this place, it is my president, Sarkozy ("My president is Sarkozy", it's hard to say...). I think peoples are still not aware about the importance that could take Sarkozy on the International scene, I think he could have a lot, I think he could represent in the future the arrogance of the Occident, especially concerning Venezuela and its friends like Iran or Russia.

To resume, for the anti-imperialists (Iran, Venezuela, Russia, etc), the "devil" would not be USA in the future but the whole Occident, with Sarkozy as its superstar, supported by USA, of course. In this case, the anti-imperialist stream of the one Chavez is the most noisy people would have still a future...

I think he'll go down in history as a bit of a joke, especially if he carries on like this...

I saw your link, yeah, it's quite funny.

But the worst dictators, and the worst politicians in general, are not afraid of the ridiculous or of stupid declarations, it's maybe like it that we can recognize them. Look at what said Mussolini or Hitler for the worst dictators, or at what said G.W. Bush and friends for the worst politicians.
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Stranger in a strange land
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2007, 06:21:57 PM »

I think a lot of his influence in the future will depend on the outcome of the US Presidential election.  Right now he's riding a tide of international Bush hatred, but Bush will be gone in a year.  If the new US president is more widely accepted on the international scale  then I think Chavez's influence will diminish significantly.  However, if the new US president is someone he can continue to pick on as an internationally disliked figure then I could see him continuing to be an annoyance.  Regardless of who the president is though, Venezuela is a major oil exporter and as long as the US continues to rely heavily on imported oil and Chavez will continue to be a pain in our ass.

Concerning the new US president, I think so. I also think that there is still one year for G.W. Bush to begin a world mess by striking on Iran, making rising more than ever the importance of Chavez on the International scene.

If there is a new US president less disliked in the world (it could be as much Clinton as Giuliani, or else, it won't be very hard to be more disliked than G.W. Bush), if the new US president who is less a sort of "cow-boy of the western freedom", I think there is an other one who could take this place, it is my president, Sarkozy ("My president is Sarkozy", it's hard to say...). I think peoples are still not aware about the importance that could take Sarkozy on the International scene, I think he could have a lot, I think he could represent in the future the arrogance of the Occident, especially concerning Venezuela and its friends like Iran or Russia.


I dunno, Sarkozy seems a lot harder to hate than Bush: Bush embodies negative stereotypes of Americans much more than Sarkozy embodies  negative stereotypes of France. I think the revisionist countries are already targeting the entire west, not just the US, but this hasn't been fully appreciated yet because so much of their wrath and ire has centered on Bush and US behavior in the Middle East, which most Europeans have opposed for some time.
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Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]
tsionebreicruoc
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« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2007, 11:20:45 AM »
« Edited: December 18, 2007, 10:58:59 AM by tsionebreicruoc »

I dunno, Sarkozy seems a lot harder to hate than Bush: Bush embodies negative stereotypes of Americans much more than Sarkozy embodies  negative stereotypes of France. I think the revisionist countries are already targeting the entire west, not just the US, but this hasn't been fully appreciated yet because so much of their wrath and ire has centered on Bush and US behavior in the Middle East, which most Europeans have opposed for some time.

I'm totally aware about the fact that the entire West is targeted from the beginning, our countries (the ones of the whole west, from Australia to Europe passing by North America) are so strong allies on too much plans and for too much time to not be it and the foreign policy of Europe is quite a slave of the USA foreign policy.

But until now, we could seem that we were not totally allies in appearance, that Europe and other west countries had their independence with USA choices, France said "NO" to Irak (I have to acknowledge I'm proud about this decision of Chirac), Germany followed the opinion of France on this subject, Spain took back its soldiers after its elections, etc.

What I meant it is that Sarkozy will really show to the world how the Occident has a unified foreign policy and I think he will be its spokesman, especially if the next US president is less a "cow-boy". He won't represent bad embodies of French peoples or of Western peoples, I think he will just represent a sort of Western arrogance. So that, all the anti-imperialists will officially target the whole West, in speeches and maybe further.

To resume, if Bush doesn't open the world mess with Iran, I think that it's Sarkozy in the name of the whole West and supported by it who could open such a mess. Will it be for legitimate reasons or not? Let us see...

I think that this man, Sarkozy, is really too ambitious, that he has no limit, that he is not afraid by a lot of things and that he wanna let a trace in the History. He's clever, aware of realities and less ideological than G.W. Bush and friends but his ambition could dominate his intelligence. Let us see too, but I think it's good to keep an eye on him.

I opened this topic about Chavez cause I think he will be a man who will be important in the future of International politics. I think the others could be Sarkozy, Putin (or maybe someone worst than Putin to lead Russia, this country is always full of surprises, but currently Putin seems to be strong), Ahmadinejad, and maybe others I still don't know or about the ones I don't think yet.
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Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]
tsionebreicruoc
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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2007, 01:33:58 PM »
« Edited: December 18, 2007, 11:00:30 AM by tsionebreicruoc »

Third distribution of oil in the Bronx for Chavez.

Does he want to make elect someone in his favor for USA 2008?!?

I guess more he wanna show him as a sort of "Father of poor peoples around the world".

I remember that one day, on CNN, Pat Robertson, the evangelical adviser of G.W. Bush (is he still it?), said something like that: "We should send a man in this country to shoot him (Chavez)". Maybe Chavez should take care of him, it's less expensive for an agent to go in the Bronx than in Venezuela (I'm ironical but we never know).

In USA, what do medias and candidates for presidency say about this sort of "visit"?
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DownWithTheLeft
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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2007, 02:20:22 PM »

Hitler > Chazez
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dead0man
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« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2007, 02:29:16 PM »

I think he'll go down in history as a bit of a joke, especially if he carries on like this...
Correct.  They are due for a coup any month now.
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Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]
tsionebreicruoc
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« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2007, 11:07:26 AM »


Chazez is maybe a sort of Hitler, I don't know him.

But, as I said, ChaVez would be more a sort of Mussolini, a socialist Mussolini.

I think judgements need to be accurate, I mean more accurate than this one (Hitler), to be useful.
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© tweed
Miamiu1027
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« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2007, 10:55:10 PM »

I think he'll go down in history as a bit of a joke, especially if he carries on like this...
Correct.  They are due for a coup any month now.

no.  coups occurs in times of an extremely unpopular regime, economic crises, etc.  none of those really apply.  oil is fueling the VZ economy at the moment and Chavez took +60% in the last election.  if the price of oil starts to plummet maybe we can have this discussion again.
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Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]
tsionebreicruoc
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« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2008, 10:36:02 AM »
« Edited: January 21, 2008, 12:03:38 PM by tsionebreicruoc »

I didn't see any topic on the liberation of the hostages in Colombia. I was not on the net during the days it happened. And as to me it is an important thing I come back on it:

Assessment of the Operation:

-2 important hostages freed by Chavez.

-Wonderful TV images of the liberation made by Chavez TV, "telesur" (and Oliver Stone?), which were able to be seen by lot of peoples all over Latin America through this TV channel and by the whole world through other TV channels.

-A very bad result for the image of Uribe in Colombia and maybe further.

Result:

-Chavez 9/10 (perfection does not exists): Seen in Latin America and maybe further as a great rescuer, as a great man.

-Uribe 2/10: 2 points just cause he accepted and let the operation be done. For the rest, it seems this operation is catastrophic for him and his policy.

-France 1/10: Some say that Sarkozy played a small role in it, even if very small.

-USA 0/10: No role in this operation but they are expected to be in every operation. More of that they have let their "ennemy", Chavez, be seen as an "hero".

Conclusion:

Large victory for Chavez.
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Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]
tsionebreicruoc
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2008, 12:58:51 PM »
« Edited: January 28, 2008, 01:00:25 PM by tsionebreicruoc »

Back

To me, somethings important happened this weekend while I wasn't on net and it seems that here nobody spoke about it and about it.

To resume for the ones who don't read the press articles, first, Chavez said Colombia and the US were preparing an attack against Venezuela. Second, Chavez has created an anti-US coalition in Latin America with at least Bolivia, Nicaragua and Cuba with a fourth that is according to such press agency or such an other, Ecuador or Dominica Island.

What do you think about these things?

Personally, I see it as a confirmation of the risk of creation of an anti-imperialism (anti-West) coalition around the world (here it is just question of Latin America but it reinforce at least this in this region) and of the risk of war between these two possible coalitions even if I would be surprised if such a war begins in this part of the world, if yes, to me, Cuba or Bolivia could the hottest spots.

I don't say I trust Chavez when he says US/Colombia want to attack Venezuela, to me it's just a 10% possibility. But this makes more and more growing tensions between West and anti-imperialists around the world, I think the position of Chavez also psychologically strengthen all the anti-imperialists states around the world.

So, I think that what has happened this weekend is important.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2008, 02:04:25 PM »

Chavez himself is clearly a would-be imperialist. He's actually quite open about it.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2008, 03:47:40 PM »

How did Chavez get into power anyway?
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2008, 04:01:18 PM »


'cos the old regime sucked even more than him. Or something along those general lines.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2008, 04:08:00 PM »

Thanks.
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Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]
tsionebreicruoc
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« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2008, 10:15:53 AM »

Chavez himself is clearly a would-be imperialist. He's actually quite open about it.

Agree
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